Do you have to be a super technical player to play prog?

-mouse- · 12-29-2009, 02:00 AM

what I mean is, do you have to be a John Pettruci-like demigod, or can you sort of get by halfway there? I think I'm quite a decent player for the amount of time i've played (going on 4 years now) and I would love to play prog metal stuff, but god damn am I crushed and humbled when I hear guys like Tim Millar and Luke Hoskin play

BrainArt · 12-29-2009, 02:06 AM

I don't think you have to be John Petrucci to play prog, I'm far from being JP, and I still play prog. Sure, it would be awesome to be play prog with JP skills, but it's not a prerequisite.

Variant · 12-29-2009, 02:32 AM

Prog is not about chops. Its common and welcome in the genre, but being inventive and outside the norm is more of the definition, to me anyway.

Harry · 12-29-2009, 02:33 AM

There are thousands and thousands of prog bands that are not made up of virtuoso musicians at all. Prog rock is about the like minded union of musicians who seek to challenge themselves with complex compositions.
Yes, there are some bands with virtuoso musicians, like Dream Theater or Between the Buried and Me, but there are also many, like Pink Floyd, that were not.
Ultimately, the composition and being imaginative is what's required.
Virtuosity is only optional for prog if that's what the style calls for

Ishan · 12-29-2009, 02:57 AM

Just look at Ackerfeldt, he's not a technical demigod and he does prog more than fine

Prydogga · 12-29-2009, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishan

Just look at Ackerfeldt, he's not a technical demigod and he does prog more than fine

Damn,

Anton · 12-29-2009, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry

There are thousands and thousands of prog bands that are not made up of virtuoso musicians at all. Prog rock is about the like minded union of musicians who seek to challenge themselves with complex compositions.
Yes, there are some bands with virtuoso musicians, like Dream Theater or Between the Buried and Me, but there are also many, like Pink Floyd, that were not.
Ultimately, the composition and being imaginative is what's required.
Virtuosity is only optional for prog if that's what the style calls for

Definitely!!

When you think about Petrucci you immediately think about complex solos, they dont have really complex riffs.
If you take out the solos for Dream Theater's music it's still Prog, but it not that technical.

Koshchei · 12-29-2009, 10:34 AM

I think that if you're going to call yourself a "prog" player, your technique has to be developed enough to not limit your music. If it's getting in the way, you need to hit the woodshed with a metronome.

Esp Griffyn · 12-29-2009, 10:45 AM

Just look at Alex Lifeson; not "technical" by todays standards (as in, not a shredder), but still the best guitarist in the genre by a mile.

Why? Because he is far more inventive with his playing than anyone else within the genre I could care to mention. It's no surprise that the formula he wrote, and continues to rewrite with Rush has been copied badly by a million bands since.

7 Strings of Hate · 12-29-2009, 10:46 AM

id say prog is more about song structure than technical playing

S-O · 12-29-2009, 10:47 AM

While I don't think over the top shred chops are required for prog, I still prefer them

Necrophagist777 · 12-29-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7 Strings of Hate

id say prog is more about song structure than technical playing

For sure. I think it's the bending of genres, song structures, and tonality during a single track that make something prog. Technicality is just sometimes a prerequisite in people's playing that make that type of music.

Kyo · 12-29-2009, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7 Strings of Hate

id say prog is more about song structure than technical playing

I feel the same. Of course it is very useful to have chops that enable you to realize your more complex ideas, but other than that I think the general approach to songwriting and individual musicians' parts is far more important than technical skill.

Samer · 12-29-2009, 11:11 AM

Yea prog dosnt have to be technical, the example of Opeth comes to mind; great song writers and the music isnt easy to play or anything but it comes natural.

And i think that's what matters, if you write stuff that comes natural and sounds good to you.

mattofvengeance · 12-29-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Variant

Prog is not about chops. Its common and welcome in the genre, but being inventive and outside the norm is more of the definition, to me anyway.

+1. rep'd

liquidcow · 12-29-2009, 11:18 AM

For me there's 'progressive' and there's 'prog'. The first means anything that supposedly does something innovative and 'moves music forward' (it's a troublesome definition as I've never heard The Beatles, Stevie Wonder, or the Beach Boys described as prog even though they could be said to have done that, but we'll overlook that for now...). The second, I find, refers to more of a particular style of music, embodied by many 70s prog bands and more current ones that emulate them in some way, like Porcupine Tree.

But that aside, I don't think for either you need to be a guitar virtuoso at all. If you're going by the more vague definition, then you just have to be in some way inventive. You could nail your guitar to a piano and call it prog if you like. For the second definition, still a no, but I'd say that a good knowledge of theory would be useful.

bulb · 12-29-2009, 06:27 PM

porcupine tree is prog
and other than the drums being ridiculous
the guitars are insanely simple
its the arrangements that are progressive

TonalArchitect · 12-29-2009, 06:37 PM

There's no need to have really fast scale runs and other virtuosic displays to be progressive. The point is not just playing a I-IV-V in 4/4.

I would also like to mention Adam Jones, whose awesome playing is not a showcase of speed technique.

Varcolac · 12-29-2009, 06:42 PM

Elbow:

You don't have to be virtuosos to be progressive.

Edit: they've actually described themselves as "prog rock without the guitar solos." They write fairly simple pop songs with interesting structures and awesome instrumentation.

Justin Bailey · 12-29-2009, 06:48 PM

its an unfortunate common misconception that 'prog rock' is all about dream theater-ish music, and shreddy guitars. Crime in Choir, Anglagard, all have music that is relatively easy, but its the arrangements that make it sound so complicated.

sol niger 333 · 12-29-2009, 07:39 PM

Classic example of a great prog band without a virtuoso guitarist is Tool. That band would be ruined by a virtuoso guitarist. In my mind prog is more about thinking outside the square when it comes to writing/joining up sections of music. Less about the individual playing more about the vision.

IE: If you can play ok you should be fine.. As long as you are intelligent :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonalArchitect

There's no need to have really fast scale runs and other virtuosic displays to be progressive. The point is not just playing a I-IV-V in 4/4.

I would also like to mention Adam Jones, whose awesome playing is not a showcase of speed technique.

stuz719 · 12-30-2009, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonalArchitect

There's no need to have really fast scale runs and other virtuosic displays to be progressive. The point is not just playing a I-IV-V in 4/4.

A finer summary you'll not find.

Harry · 12-30-2009, 10:07 PM

Another point I should mention, is that the website progarchives.com, where I used to write album reviews and also had a hand in writing biographies for bands to be added to the database, also consider post rock and post metal to be sub genres of prog rock.
These are genres that absolutely do not require technical playing.
Think Isis, Explosions in the Sky, The Samuel Jackson 5 etc. All bands that are about compositional genius and generally never really feature technical playing at all

vineroon · 12-31-2009, 04:30 AM

Definitely not. As stated by others in this thread, there are a lot of bands out there who don't have guitarists/musicians who aren't technically spectacular but have a really good talent for writing songs. In the end, it really comes down to what you want from the music. For some people, yes, it will be keyboard, guitars, and bass solos at 350 beats per minute, but I think any prog. band with an emphasis in rhythm guitars and songwriting is far better to listen to.

NickCormier · 12-31-2009, 05:10 AM

Pink Floyd is what I consider Prog too, and not too technical.

I think the best prog actually is easier stuff, just the conceptual writing itself is what blows my mind away and is the difficult part..

My fav "prog" band is Porcupine Tree, definately not super technical but amazing amazing talent. Probably my favorite band ever too.

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12-29-2009, 02:00 AM	#1
-mouse- Such a strange numb Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Lost Angels Posts: 503 Thanked: 28 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Do you have to be a super technical player to play prog? what I mean is, do you have to be a John Pettruci-like demigod, or can you sort of get by halfway there? I think I'm quite a decent player for the amount of time i've played (going on 4 years now) and I would love to play prog metal stuff, but god damn am I crushed and humbled when I hear guys like Tim Millar and Luke Hoskin play

12-29-2009, 02:06 AM	#2
BrainArt Deftones Guru. Join Date: May 2009 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 7,668 Thanked: 25 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I don't think you have to be John Petrucci to play prog, I'm far from being JP, and I still play prog. Sure, it would be awesome to be play prog with JP skills, but it's not a prerequisite. Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, Jakke and -42. I am Poi; The Ipu pounding, Ukulele shredding rapey clown, who ruins childhood dreams of balloon animals!

12-29-2009, 02:57 AM	#5
Ishan Giant Fridge Magnet Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Paris, France. Posts: 4,271 Thanked: 25 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Just look at Ackerfeldt, he's not a technical demigod and he does prog more than fine Current rig : Agile Intrepid Pro with Lace Aluma Deathbar pickup -> Eleven Rack + TC G-Major -> ESI Near 5 Experience My string tension calculator STC - supports most D'addarrio and Circle K Strings

12-29-2009, 10:34 AM	#8
Koshchei Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Peterborough, Canada Posts: 1,638 Thanked: 9 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I think that if you're going to call yourself a "prog" player, your technique has to be developed enough to not limit your music. If it's getting in the way, you need to hit the woodshed with a metronome. Last edited by Koshchei; 12-29-2009 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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12-29-2009, 02:32 AM	#3
Variant Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: All-white-tukee, Arizona Posts: 5,641 Thanked: 82 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Prog is not about chops. Its common and welcome in the genre, but being inventive and outside the norm is more of the definition, to me anyway.

12-29-2009, 02:33 AM	#4
Harry Doom man of Doom. Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Greater Melbourne metropolitan area, Australia Posts: 8,249 Thanked: 59 $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 4 reviews	There are thousands and thousands of prog bands that are not made up of virtuoso musicians at all. Prog rock is about the like minded union of musicians who seek to challenge themselves with complex compositions. Yes, there are some bands with virtuoso musicians, like Dream Theater or Between the Buried and Me, but there are also many, like Pink Floyd, that were not. Ultimately, the composition and being imaginative is what's required. Virtuosity is only optional for prog if that's what the style calls for

12-29-2009, 10:45 AM	#9
Esp Griffyn APEX Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: SEVEN Posts: 3,617 Thanked: 23 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Just look at Alex Lifeson; not "technical" by todays standards (as in, not a shredder), but still the best guitarist in the genre by a mile. Why? Because he is far more inventive with his playing than anyone else within the genre I could care to mention. It's no surprise that the formula he wrote, and continues to rewrite with Rush has been copied badly by a million bands since.

12-29-2009, 10:46 AM	#10
7 Strings of Hate Mid-Level Asshole Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: St.Louis USA Posts: 6,774 Thanked: 90 Feedback Score: 23 reviews	id say prog is more about song structure than technical playing Confront and Destroy! -7SoH http://www.myspace.com/7stringsofhate

12-29-2009, 10:47 AM	#11
S-O t(-.-t) Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dayton and Columbus, Ohio Posts: 2,293 Thanked: 18 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	While I don't think over the top shred chops are required for prog, I still prefer them

12-29-2009, 11:11 AM	#14
Samer Dybbuk Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 2,338 Thanked: 72 Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Yea prog dosnt have to be technical, the example of Opeth comes to mind; great song writers and the music isnt easy to play or anything but it comes natural. And i think that's what matters, if you write stuff that comes natural and sounds good to you.

12-29-2009, 11:18 AM	#16
liquidcow ss.org Regular Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UK Posts: 441 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	For me there's 'progressive' and there's 'prog'. The first means anything that supposedly does something innovative and 'moves music forward' (it's a troublesome definition as I've never heard The Beatles, Stevie Wonder, or the Beach Boys described as prog even though they could be said to have done that, but we'll overlook that for now...). The second, I find, refers to more of a particular style of music, embodied by many 70s prog bands and more current ones that emulate them in some way, like Porcupine Tree. But that aside, I don't think for either you need to be a guitar virtuoso at all. If you're going by the more vague definition, then you just have to be in some way inventive. You could nail your guitar to a piano and call it prog if you like. For the second definition, still a no, but I'd say that a good knowledge of theory would be useful. http://www.myspace.com/talanas

12-29-2009, 06:27 PM	#17
bulb Join Date: May 2006 Location: Washington DC Posts: 4,384 Thanked: 232 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	porcupine tree is prog and other than the drums being ridiculous the guitars are insanely simple its the arrangements that are progressive Perceive beyond the seam. www.soundcloud.com/iambulb www.myspace.com/iambulb www.myspace.com/periphery www.soundclick.com/bulb

12-29-2009, 06:37 PM	#18
TonalArchitect Augmented Chords! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 1,506 Thanked: 11 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	There's no need to have really fast scale runs and other virtuosic displays to be progressive. The point is not just playing a I-IV-V in 4/4. I would also like to mention Adam Jones, whose awesome playing is not a showcase of speed technique. I'll just pull my santa hat down over my eyes and think about Batman fighting a bear. -TomAwesome

12-29-2009, 06:42 PM	#19
Varcolac Frets? What frets? Join Date: May 2009 Location: London Posts: 1,508 Thanked: 13 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Elbow: You don't have to be virtuosos to be progressive. Edit: they've actually described themselves as "prog rock without the guitar solos." They write fairly simple pop songs with interesting structures and awesome instrumentation. Carpathia : progressive extreme metal from London. Free track! Click here! SchecterWhore: "Development, phase four. Beethoven takes you for a ride through space in his Pontiac Trans Am."

12-29-2009, 06:48 PM	#20
Justin Bailey SS.org Regular Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: hell Posts: 2,139 Thanked: 22 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	its an unfortunate common misconception that 'prog rock' is all about dream theater-ish music, and shreddy guitars. Crime in Choir, Anglagard, all have music that is relatively easy, but its the arrangements that make it sound so complicated.

12-30-2009, 10:07 PM	#23
Harry Doom man of Doom. Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Greater Melbourne metropolitan area, Australia Posts: 8,249 Thanked: 59 $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Harry is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Another point I should mention, is that the website progarchives.com, where I used to write album reviews and also had a hand in writing biographies for bands to be added to the database, also consider post rock and post metal to be sub genres of prog rock. These are genres that absolutely do not require technical playing. Think Isis, Explosions in the Sky, The Samuel Jackson 5 etc. All bands that are about compositional genius and generally never really feature technical playing at all

12-31-2009, 04:30 AM	#24
vineroon ζ Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: USA Posts: 259 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Definitely not. As stated by others in this thread, there are a lot of bands out there who don't have guitarists/musicians who aren't technically spectacular but have a really good talent for writing songs. In the end, it really comes down to what you want from the music. For some people, yes, it will be keyboard, guitars, and bass solos at 350 beats per minute, but I think any prog. band with an emphasis in rhythm guitars and songwriting is far better to listen to.

12-31-2009, 05:10 AM	#25
NickCormier Carvin User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Moncton/Halifax Posts: 4,982 Thanked: 90 Feedback Score: 8 reviews	Pink Floyd is what I consider Prog too, and not too technical. I think the best prog actually is easier stuff, just the conceptual writing itself is what blows my mind away and is the difficult part.. My fav "prog" band is Porcupine Tree, definately not super technical but amazing amazing talent. Probably my favorite band ever too.

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