P50E vs V30 (Detailed Analysis)

[budda]

Nick, as i clearly stated in my post, I don't remember if I had my head in front of all the speakers.

I just know 2 CLX 212's on 212 cabs in stereo sounded good

OT: are there used Sig:X's and what's their going rate if so?

[JJ Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by maat

I have no issue with Nick or whatever his name is...I have an issue with his dismissive statements. Still, it's not unlikely to have multiple people assume that- because I disagree with his statement that I'm attacking "his" thread.

How helpful he is to you, or any of his other loyal customers is not my concern. I'll voice my feelings on the matter agreeable or disagreeable.

You didn't state an opinion on the V30.

Save your breath, Andii...the guy's a salesman.

"Yeah I have no idea about the Eminence Wizard but I doubt its the same."

^He makes statements like this...

You stated your opinion on Nick, which was baseless and in poor taste. And judging by your previous rep, you do have a problem with Nick because like I said, this isn't the first time you've graced his threads with your BS.

[Apex1rg7x]

These clowns that keep addressing this as a "hate on V30's" article need to shutup and re-read the article. Its a simple comparison that Steve made to compare 2 different speakers that are not close to the same at all. He never once said that the V30 sucked, he was simply comparing their tonal characteristics. Nick always has a non-biased opinion on something that hes passionate about, he has more experience with different gear than almost everyone here so i take his opinions and advice. Ive bought gear from him and you wont find anyone more helpful than him.

[yan12]

Keeping my 2 cents centered on the speaker debate, I found the article to reflect what I just found out last weekend. I am in need of a new cab and have been wanting to downsize to a 2x12 for some time. I also have the good fortune of currently having some cash to spend on whatever I want, which is not always the case! Anyhow, I am a long time 7 string player (std pitch) and have been looking for that cab that can handle fast lines on the low B while retaining note definition (heavy distortion of course). I currently use a Rocca Jenelle but also performed this test with several amps, a single recto modified, a Diezel H and a Two Rock. I have two good friends that own music stores an carry different gear, one of which is high end boutique names. In 2x12, the Bogner oversize with a v30 and c80 was awesome, and the one with 2 v30's okay. Interestingly enough, a 6 year old straight 4x12 recto with v30's SMOKED with about everything. Gflex was way too woofy with a v30 and a weber. The old mesa 1/2back with bs90 on top and ev200's on bottom was loud but off somehow. Cone excursion was MASSIVE on the bs90's, and I am guessing they were tired...and we had these heads all running about 30% on the power cure, more than enough. Cleans were awesome with this cab and the ev's were of course, ev's. The VHT fb slanted was tight and punchy and not nearly as loud as I was thinking it would be. I liked the note definition and loved the cab. My conclusion was the only 2x12 I really dug was the Bogner Oversize...the marshall with gt75's, the recto with v30, thd with longhorns, and carvin legacy v30 (all these are 2x12) did not do what I wanted...they all had some great tones and I never really knew how much the cab size, shape, and mounting (front or rear) influenced the tone. Same goes for the ohms. HUGE difference to my ears between 4 and 16, not so much going from 16 to 8 or 8 to 4. This experiment has been a 2.5 week long quest trying tons of stuff with the same heads. The Bogner OS is almost like lugging a 4x12, so I might stay right there. I totally agree with having V30 rear mounted vs. front mounted in terms of how it performed to my ears. The p50's were front mounted and who knows, they may sound like crap to me mounted any other way...my friend wouldn't let me put them in that Bogner...at least not yet. I am trying a port city waves 2x12 with two Em Super V Lynch 150 watters on Friday and will report back. I am guessing it will be woofy with those ports...the low B just hammers with good gain. That Gflex was great with an old ibby 550 but as soon as we went to B and the Ab for fun on our 7 string arsenal it was 4 wheelin in Georgia in the springtime. So far I would buy the VHT fb or that straight old school Mesa in 4x12...so I agree with the findings of the article but ended up liking both!!!!!! which leads me to another question of how many cabs to use. If I run a full stack, will 8 speakers handle and translate better than just 2 speakers or 4? Sucks to be a tone chaser and it's dam expensive at these current gas prices.
Yan

[Arsis]

I am also Interested in Yan12's questions. I am also interested in you guys' worded opinion the difference in sound when switching between ohms.

[zimbloth]

Originally Posted by Arsis

I am also Interested in Yan12's questions. I am also interested in you guys' worded opinion the difference in sound when switching between ohms.

What questions exactly? I can't even read his post.

[Arsis]

Originally Posted by yan12

which leads me to another question of how many cabs to use. If I run a full stack, will 8 speakers handle and translate better than just 2 speakers or 4? Sucks to be a tone chaser and it's dam expensive at these current gas prices.
Yan

?

[zimbloth]

Originally Posted by Arsis

?

Yeah running two 4x12s or 2x12s should certainly perform better than two 1x12s if that's what he's asking. A lot of that depends on the speakers in question though. If you have a 150W tube head and you're running it into a 2x12 with 30w speakers (for 60 total) the headroom, low-end response, and overall sound is not going to hold up as well as if it was going into a cab with more power handling. That said, I've run a 180W Diezel Herbert cranked to death through a 2x12 Fat Bottom cab (100w) and it was tight and awesome because the speakers are legit.

All things being equal though, when you go from using 1 cab to 2, you change the ohm setting on the amp. For example, Fryette cabs are 16ohm. If you have one cab you'd set the head to 16ohm. If you went to a full stack, you'd switch the setting on the amp to 8ohm so that both cabs would receive 16 ohms. So basically, while a full stack will certainly sound 'bigger', the fundamental tone of the amp won't change.

So if you're hoping to improve the tone/response of your head by going from a half-stack to a full, thats not going to happen. The only improvement in tone will be from just filling more of the room with tone.

However, using the incorrect ohm setting can most definitely suck the life out of an amp.

[dpm]

FWIW and most importantly IMO the article is dead on regarding V30s and my own ears. I haven't tried the P50E so I can't comment (I'd like to though). I simply cannot get my sound from any V30 cab I've tried with numerous amps because of the loose lows, fizzy highs and a peakiness that doesn't work for me. But some people love them and that's fine. What I find really frustrating is going to try out a new head and finding that every cab in the store is loaded with V30s. I just can't get an accurate indicator of how the amp will work for me plugged into that damn speaker

[budda]

Dan, buy a tester 112!

Or build one

[Sepultorture]

throwing my 2 cents in there cus i have a mesa 4x12 loaded with the V30's, and once owned a UL and P50E loaded FB 4x12 cab

i found the FB4x12 to be quite responsive, clear, great bottom, chimey highs, alost bell like, the cleans were sex, it had growl and bite to it for metal, but the overall sound itself was kinda dry, and dry isn't for me, not a bad cab at all, great speakers, but not my sound.

the stiletto 4x12 loaded with v30's, well for my tastes it is quite good for death metal, i like it, but it still leaves a little to be desired, the cleans are good, but not bell like really, for distortion, they were good, but they do have a brittle top end, and they definitely have a fizziness to them, alos the mesa DR's fault too, but not a terrible speaker at all, still crunches like a mother ....er.

now on a seperate speaker note, i would like to try the C90's and even those uber sexy EVM12L's, droooool.

CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG, BREEE BREE BREEEE, GROWL, BREE lol

[dpm]

Originally Posted by budda

Dan, buy a tester 112!

Or build one

I've actually built a 212 but haven't got around to covering it or putting speakers in it yet

[JMP2203]

in my experience depends on the amp, some amps love vintage 30 and others no, especially amps that are created/designed/voiced around v30. of course a VHT will sound better with p50 because its made for those amps.

also remember that LOTS of great recorded albums with great tones used v30, probability the majority

i like k100

[budda]

Originally Posted by dpm

I've actually built a 212 but haven't got around to covering it or putting speakers in it yet

it doesn't need to look good, it just needs to work! - wire up some speakers and giv'r!

[dpm]

time is my problem, and I can't decide on speakers. I know I love Classic Leads but I really want to try the P50E and also the Warehouse version of the Classic Lead. Then there's the rather large issue of shipping cost to Australia which is quite a bit for speakers. So it comes back to probably Classic Leads because I might be able to get them at wholesale price, but I'd like to try these other ones, but the shipping cost is steep, and the circle continues...

[Nick]

Originally Posted by zimbloth

Okay a lot of us VHT/Fryette users have been singing the praises of their P50E speakers for some time now. I get a lot of questions about them and how they compare to more common speakers like Celestion V30s, so I decided to post an article written by the guys at Steven Fryette Design below as well as on my website for you to read. Very informative.

Enjoy, and I look forward to your comments/feedback. And yes I know tone is subjective, but this article is very accurate IMO


The P50E speaker is custom built to SFD specifications by Eminence, and is only available from Steven Fryette Design, Inc. The P50E is not an OEM version of the Eminence Redcoat or Patriot series speaker lines.

It is difficult to discuss the sonic characteristics of the P50E or any speaker for that matter, in isolation because so much of speaker behavior depends on the environment in which it is operating - that is to say, 2X12 cab, 4X12 cab, front-mount, rear-mount, wood type, construction style, playing volume, etc, etc. Having said all that lets talk about the P50E versus the popular Celestion Vintage 30 in a Fryette 4X12 FatBottom straight cab.

The P50E is actually a 50-watt speaker. The V30, although officially rated at 60 watts is in reality closer to 75 watts. The P50E has a smaller magnet than the V30, which insures that the speaker will break up at lower amplifier power than a V30. However, the V30 has a more compliant suspension, which together with the larger magnet causes the speaker to move more-low end. This also causes more distortion in the higher frequencies contributing to a harsh top end. The highly compliant suspension makes it difficult for the speaker to track low frequencies especially at high volume levels and this causes a “woofy” sound when playing staccato chording (‘palm muting”). It is also partly why the P50E, although lower in power handling capacity, seems to produce about as much low end as a V30, yet with better control of the low end. The smaller magnet on the P50E also contributes to a softer, more natural sounding high-end response, which is not smeared out by the sloppy suspension, as is the case with the V30. Finally, the Fryette cabinet is a front loaded type, producing a more open, well-dispersed sound. Front mounting a V30 is less desirable as the harshness on the top end, which is normally masked in a rear-mounted enclosure, is now more audible.

Another very important consideration in the comparison has to do with the age and condition of the speakers under test. The P50E is not factory “preconditioned” as many OEM speakers might be or might claim to be. This means that depending on usage, it may take as little as a month or as long as 6 months for the speaker to “break in”. A V30 will be looser and warmer out of the box, but also is brighter and tighter than it will be 4 months from now (with regular use). The V30 will mellow out a bit over time, but the low-end control issues will be exaggerated. By the same token, the P50E, while retaining good bottom end control will sweeten up and smooth out over time.

Comparing the FatBottom to the Deliverance cabs, the FatBottom series cabs loaded with the P50 speaker is considered modern sounding and exhibits lots of projection, low-end control and excellent tonal detail. The Deliverance cab on the other hand will sound warmer, looser and sweeter than the FatBottom cab even though they use the same speaker. The Deliverance cab is designed to make the speaker fatter and warmer sounding, as might happen in a traditional 4X12 cab design, but without the traditional boomy, sloppy rattling low end. The ability to identify and manipulate key elements of cabinet construction gives us control over those speaker parameters we wish to suppress or enhance.

The difference between front mounted speakers and rear mounted speakers is subtle and both methods have their pros and cons. Overall we find front mounting to be preferable. Those who would disagree must realize that it is difficult to compare based on the sound of other manufacturers cabs because construction method and material type/quality play a much larger part than mounting method in determining the sound of the cab and behavior of the speaker.

Finally, all of the above depends on the amp in response to which the speakers’ mids, top and bottom will all shift around in concert with the difference in behavior between 100 watts or 50 for example. Keep in mind that this discussion assumes all speakers in the comparison are 16 ohms, as the P50E is only available in 16 ohms. This is important since the impedance of the amplifier load will dramatically affect the behavior of the amplifier due to damping factor and frequency


As someone who switched from a Mesa 4x12 w/ V30s which was my main cabinet for many years to a Fat Bottom 4x12 w/ P50Es, I feel this article is 100% spot on.

hmm thanks for the GAS

[Arsis]

Originally Posted by Nick

hmm thanks for the GAS

Heard that. I have VHT (d120/60) gas out the ass.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

It's funny you posted this Zim. I just got home from the studio and I was trying out my producer's new VHT Pitbull UL, through a mesa cab with V30s and it left much to be desired. It did sound beastly, but I think the mesa cab is doing a HUGE disservice to the tone. With the intended cab I think it would be a hell of a lot better.

[zimbloth]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

It's funny you posted this Zim. I just got home from the studio and I was trying out my producer's new VHT Pitbull UL, through a mesa cab with V30s and it left much to be desired. It did sound beastly, but I think the mesa cab is doing a HUGE disservice to the tone. With the intended cab I think it would be a hell of a lot better.

Yep, exactly dude. Hopefully your producer realizes that sometime and pickups ta FB412 (or 212).

[DrakkarTyrannis]

He does..and he's buying the fatbottom to go with it..but he doesn't have it yet..so I toyed around with the amp through the Mesa. Apart from my own bias about NOT liking V30s, the VHT didn't sound too hot at ALL and it was tearing up those mesa speakers. Turning it up gave the V30s WAY more than they're meant to have.

[zimbloth]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

He does..and he's buying the fatbottom to go with it..but he doesn't have it yet..so I toyed around with the amp through the Mesa. Apart from my own bias about NOT liking V30s, the VHT didn't sound too hot at ALL and it was tearing up those mesa speakers. Turning it up gave the V30s WAY more than they're meant to have.

Cool, tell him to give me a call

But yeah, when I had a Mesa v30 cab my UL sounded meh. I had to really go to town with the Pittbull's post-EQ. With the FB412 cab, I disengage the EQ as I've never needed it again.

[yan12]

Back again with an update. First off, the question with multiple cabs vs. one cab has to do with the load, ie. going from 16 ohms to 4 ohms, isn't that amp working harder to do that, and does THAT effect tone? Still have not answered that one for myself yet. As for the cabs and this particular speaker comparison thread, I ended up with a FB 412 slant with p50's. I finally decided with both the recto and the vht side by side and my head, the vht just seemed that much tighter. The mesa was very solid, thick/rich and seared with leads. Very punchy and I really dug it as well, but it could not match the vht in tightness, and I came to the conclusion that I really dig a tight sound with what I am doing. Concerning playing volume influencing tone, ie. practice/home level vs. club/venue level, my head is the Roccaforte Jenelle, and it is insanely loud. Many people complain Rocca's are too damn loud and unusable in most situations, and I won't disagree on that. I just read a battery of tests, performed in a studio in NY that claimed as loud as the vht ultra was completely dimed, the Rocca HG100 easily surpassed it at about 40% of volume. All amps were dimed in the test, and the list is impressive and long. I DID NOT buy the amp knowing this nor do I care one ounce, but the point is as loud as I tested all the cabs, the vht fb 412 retained that tight quality and it sold me big time. Nothing against any other cabs I tried, 80% of which had v30's front or rear mounted, and some were mixed with bs90's, gt75's, and k100's... They were no better (but possibly tighter) to my ear than all v30's in a cab. Some more scooped and some a little less shrill on the top end. I don't know if it is the cab dimensions, the speakers, the combination of the two, or just my ears liking a particular thing that I have finally identified, but everyone in the band agreed last night I have never sounded better. I learned that v30's sound absolutely fantastic in many cabs, but for me the p50's in the fb are the end all with this head...and 2x12's just didn't turn my crank other than portability...even tilting them up. Hell this vht isn't much bigger than the bogner os I almost bought. I think the article has some merit, but I know the v30 is one hell of a good rock/metal speaker.
Yan

[budda]

I'd like to hear a mesa through a Fatbottom.

Too bad no one around here owns one.

[Sepultorture]

Originally Posted by budda

I'd like to hear a mesa through a Fatbottom.

Too bad no one around here owns one.

i had the mesa DR on top of the FB 4x12 at one point, sounded muffled almost

helped the cleans out alot, but distortion sounded like it was stuck in the amp and was trying to get out

[budda]

Hm, weird.

My triple X slant w/ WGS British Leads holds up well so far