[HighGain510]

Don't do it!!! The Invader is definitely better than the SE man, I've owned and played both! The high gain stuff sounds almost identical on both amps but the SE has more of a semi-plastic feel to it, almost like what noodles was saying. It reminds me of a slightly less SS-feeling Powerball in way. I wouldn't do it personally, I think the Invader has more organic sounding mids on channel two and still has the uber crazy death metal high gain of the SE.

[LordOVchaoS]

Sometimes you guys forget that I play ball crushing death metal.

I very much liked the response of the Powerball and I think the Invader may be TOO natural and organic sounding for me. Warm and natural isn't my thing, I go for goat slaughtering, nun raping, tight, br00talzzz tone.

I think the SE will fit my needs more than the Invader. If I could have Invader tone with Powerball response I would be in brewtal heaven and from what I understand that's what the SE does.

The guy I bought my Invader from sold it to fund his SECOND SE. He's running two of them because he likes them that much. At the same time he sold a Roadster, Engl E580, Marshall Kerry King 2203, 5150III, and a Metero MAK3000 because he's totally happy with 2 SE's.

That says something to me

[HighGain510]

Originally Posted by LordOVchaoS

The guy I bought my Invader from sold it to fund his SECOND SE. He's running two of them because he likes them that much. At the same time he sold a Roadster, Engl E580, Marshall Kerry King 2203, 5150III, and a Metero MAK3000 because he's totally happy with 2 SE's.

That says something to me

Yes indeed... it says he's a gear whore as well! If it's your thing that's awesome Joe. I just found myself disappointed with the amp and didn't think the price tag was fitting.

[noodles]

Originally Posted by LordOVchaoS

Sometimes you guys forget that I play ball crushing death metal.

So does Cannibal Corpse. That's why they use Rectos.

[LordOVchaoS]

Originally Posted by noodles

So does Cannibal Corpse. That's why they use Rectos.

After what? Almost 20 years of solid state

For the record there was a Powerball mixed in with the rectos on KILL (best death metal tone evar!) The solos were 100% Powerball with a tubescreamer.

The roadster or triple recto has crossed my mind lately too. Hell, I could buy TWO rectos if I sell the Invader!

Originally Posted by HighGain510

Yes indeed... it says he's a gear whore as well! If it's your thing that's awesome Joe. I just found myself disappointed with the amp and didn't think the price tag was fitting.

The price tag means one thing to me. If I don't like it I can sell it to fund an amp I like better and several other things. If it ends up being the end of my gear whoring then I have one of the most expensive amps made and there's not a whole lot of upgrading left to do. I've already established I'm an Engl guy and Engls don't get any higher than this.

[Karl Hungus]

Hmm, I was drunk earlier, and I was going to let out a big rant, lamblasting noodles for dissing the SE, but I got a little bit of sleep, sobered up, and avoided what could have been a very embarressing situation with me getting totally owned.

Anyway, just thought I'd share that for the lulz.

So, on to a more reasoned argument. I had sickening amounts of GAS for the SE not so long ago, because it really is a fantastic amp, 'plastic' would certainly not be a term I'd use to describe it, nor would I say it's processed or artificial sounding. What I would say is that it's very tight, very focused, very high gain and very compressed. So while I don't agree with the terminology used, I can totally see why a few people here don't like the amp. I was going to say that noodles probably hasn't had enough time with the amp, and considering the labyrinthine amount of sound shaping controls and options, it would be like someone trying a Mark IV for the first time, and being unsatisfied... But there are certain qualities to the amp that you're just not going to be able to dial out, so I can very much respect that noodles probably wouldn't be happy with the amp no matter how long he spent with it.

(Although, I do feel that if you can't get some lower gain tones out of an SE, you're doing something very wrong, just listen to some of Steve Morse's more recent live clips, he was using the EL34 SE, and getting some absolutely gorgeous tones that aren't ultra high gain death metal stuff. It's there, you just gotta tweak.)

The SE is definitely cut from the same cloth as the Powerball, and while it has far, far better lead sounds, and a hell of a lot more mids on tap, it's still got that same kind of quality to the EQ, it's voicing and the gain. Compressed, compressed, compressed is definitely the most accurate criticism, because the aforementione Powerball, the Fireball and the SE all have this really focused EQ, and there isn't as much 'wiggle room' to work with, as if all the frequencies are tightened in together. There's that lower midrange that you're not really going to be able to dial out, so if you're after something with more of a higher or neutral midrange, then it's not really going to work for you. Likewise, if you're after dynamics, the response isn't going to make you happy.

However...

With all that said, I can totally understand why Joe would want to go for an SE, in spite of it's critics. Any of the criticisms of the amp can easily be looked at as positives here, one man's lack of dynamics can be a great plus for another player, and there is a certain sound that it excels at like no other amp. Now, I'm 110% happy that I bought the Invader, rather than holding out for an SE, because I feel that in the last year or so, my needs have changed considerably, and my current amp suits those needs better. I'd been playing much lower gain stuff, kinda like this, and that kind of quality of gain and dynamics, the Invader lends itself to.

The two amps are just like apples and oranges, the whole voicing, dynamics, response, everything about them is vastly different. I'm still in awe of how easily I can vary my picking to achieve a light crunch to a Megadeth style high gain sound, without even touching the gain knob. But, it's something I'm still getting used to with rythms, and I do miss the response the Fireball had in that respect, it was tight as hell and didn't really take much notice of your pickng hand. I think that's often where the 'processed' criticism comes in. With the Invader, I have to keep my picking much more consistant to keep the rythm sound tight. (The tubescreamer helps me out greatly with this aspect!) A lot of people would say the amp has a lot more feel, or more '3D' so to speak. So yeah, they're both truly great amps, but vastly different. I know that if I had the SE now, I probably wouldn't be as happy with it, it just doesn't have the same capacity for low gain applications as the Invader.

I can see completely why Joe (or anyone else for that matter) would want the SE over the Invader though. There still is no greater amp in my mind for those tight, focused and brutal, ultra high gain kinda sounds, and if that's your thing, then there is no amp on the planet that can deliver that as good, or come anywhere close to it.

Sometimes I think I'd like to have both an Invader and SE, and get the best of both worlds, but I doubt that'll ever happen.

Also, whoa, long rant!

[VforVendetta00]

that was a great rant, i ended up selling the powerball cause of the super compressed sound, then got a triple cause it just sounds brutal and raw, then got a SE cause its like the powerball but not as compressed and with more mids, but it is darker, but i do love me a darker sounding amp, so i kept the triple and the SE cause that way i got the best of both, the SE to me is the best ENGL has to offer, that compressed and awesome sound is what i like about ENGLs. I think Joe and i have similar tastes. i say go for it! and for what it's worth, i never liked the invader.

[Karl Hungus]

Originally Posted by VforVendetta00

that was a great rant, i ended up selling the powerball cause of the super compressed sound, then got a triple cause it just sounds brutal and raw, then got a SE cause its like the powerball but not as compressed and with more mids, but it is darker, but i do love me a darker sounding amp, so i kept the triple and the SE cause that way i got the best of both, the SE to me is the best ENGL has to offer, that compressed and awesome sound is what i like about ENGLs. I think Joe and i have similar tastes. i say go for it! and for what it's worth, i never liked the invader.

Thanks man.

I think one of the main reasons I'm so in love with the Invader is that it's a much brighter amp. The SE is certainly a darker voiced amp, that low mid growl is astonishing, but I wanted something brighter, and the Invader was just bright as hell, but at the same time addressed my biggest criticism of the Fireball, which was the overly harsh highs; it's just got a way smoother top end, and doesn't get that ice-pick, hurt your teeth kind of sound you can get with the prescence too high on the Power/Fireball. You still have to keep the highs tamed on the SE as well.

So, you never liked the Invader? Out of curiosity, what was it you didn't like about it? I find with the Tubescreamer in the mix, I can still get all the tight and brutal rythms I need from it. Sick amp.

[VforVendetta00]

well, i really only liked a screamer on the recto, there is somethin about the input stage of ENGLs that i dont like how it sounds with a boost. and i also just like to plug in straight into an amp if i can, the powerball was great in that sense but after a few months i just got tired of the overcompressed sound. the invader was just brighter and that made it seem even more dead sounding to me. anyway, if i wanted an organic sound i'd look elsewhere, to me ENGL is about compressed and tight. and the SE's bonus is that it gets killer lead sounds, fluid and just awesome. and the lower gain sounds are just amazing, my guess is that most people didnt try using the lead channels on vintage and lowergain mode to get a lowergain sound, that is really awesome.

[Karl Hungus]

Originally Posted by VforVendetta00

well, i really only liked a screamer on the recto, there is somethin about the input stage of ENGLs that i dont like how it sounds with a boost. and i also just like to plug in straight into an amp if i can, the powerball was great in that sense but after a few months i just got tired of the overcompressed sound. the invader was just brighter and that made it seem even more dead sounding to me. anyway, if i wanted an organic sound i'd look elsewhere, to me ENGL is about compressed and tight. and the SE's bonus is that it gets killer lead sounds, fluid and just awesome. and the lower gain sounds are just amazing, my guess is that most people didnt try using the lead channels on vintage and lowergain mode to get a lowergain sound, that is really awesome.

Fluid is exactly how I'd describe the SE leads! I couldn't think of a better word for it. Kinda like the leads here, nothing quite comes close! Yeah, the lead channels are quite versatile, and there is a lot of sound options there, so it does take some getting to know the amp.

I would completely disagree about looking else than ENGL for organic sounds though, they are far from a one-trick pony, and despite people knowing the sound of the Powerball best, what with that being the most popular and recogised of their amps, they've a lot more going for them, and people seem to forget the likes of the Blackmore and the other amps they've got. It's like people thinking Mesa were only good for nu-metal, while those bands were popular, which is just wrong... Likewise I think ENGLs are just as varied.

My Uncle for example, a country player, was insanely impressed with the Invader when he played it. There's as much organic in the Invader as any other amp I've had the pleasure of using, and at the time of buying, when I was looking for something more organic, I could have easily gone for a Mesa, Soldano or VHT, but stuck with ENGL, because they had exactly what I wanted.

I get you about the boost, I felt the screamer made a much, much bigger difference to the Invader than it did to the Fireball. Different amps just respond in their own way.