Tweaking Tips For Modelers

[nitelightboy]

Tweaking Tips for Modellers

So you went out and bought yourself a modeling amp. Maybe you jam in a cover band and need a huge range of tones at your disposal. Perhaps you’re a bedroom jammer and are looking for some great tones to make playing through headphones a lot of fun. It’s also possible you’re looking for a quiet rig to use because you live in an apartment and your gagillion megawatt tube amp seems to always piss off the cops that come kicking in your door since you won’t answer when they knock. Whatever your reason, I bet there’s one thing that you’ve noticed about your modeler. When you plugged into it and starting playing, the factory presets absolutely sucked.

So what do you do now? TWEAK!!!! Ok, so that sounds pretty simple, and it really is, but how do you go about starting a task that seems so daunting? I mean, there’s 5,000 amp models, 26,522 effects, cab sims, mic sims, etc… How do you find your tone with so many options? It seems tricky, but it really isn’t. Now, I don’t own every modeler out there, so I won’t be uber specific. I’ll give you the basics to really get tweaking and find some great sounds that you can jam with for hours.

Here’s a general outline:

1. READ THE MANUAL! This is very important.
2. Learn what each button does and how to navigate through menus.
3. Figure out how to hook up to your rig and optimize your set up.
4. Have an idea of what kind of sound you’re looking for.
5. Figure out what effects you may want with that tone.
6. Name it so you can remember it.
7. Write some schweet tunes.

Now that we have that you have an idea of what’s to come, let’s break each tip down a bit more.

Read the Manual

This one might seem kind of obvious. But let’s face it, you get a new toy, you wanna play with it right away. You just don’t have time to read a manual. Especially with all those details on how to do things, and information on what does what. Starting to see why the manual is a good thing? So that’s pretty a no brainer. What about hidden features and menus? Do you know what they are on your modeler? If you haven’t flipped through the manual, then there’s probably a lot of things that you may not know about your new bundle of tonal goodness. I understand wanting to just set right up and play, and that’s exactly what you should do if you can’t wait an hour or so to read the manual. But bring that little book with you to work or school and when you get a chance, read a couple of pages. See if there’s something in there that you didn’t know about. Even if you’ve been using the same modeler for 5 years, I bet there may be something new you’ll find if you flip through those pesky pieces of paper that came in the box.

Learn How it Works

Again, this is pretty obvious. Now that you know what can be done, it’s time to learn how to do it. Maybe while you’re flipping through the manual you can follow along with your toy and play with the knobs, scroll through menus, etc. while you’re reading about it. This can certainly be a great way to learn. Or spend an hour or 2 pressing buttons and sort of bumbling your way around like a drunk 15 year old virgin trying to figure out what to do with his girlfriend. This can also be a great way to learn. No matter how you do it, just learn your way around. You don’t have to have everything memorized, but you should be able to know how to navigate through the important things. Like amp selection, effects tweaking, naming patches and so on.

Hooking It All Up

Now hooking up gear is usually pretty easy. You plug your guitar into the little hole that says either “input” or “guitar”, then you plug something into the output section (speaker outs, direct outs, headphones), turn everything on, and go tweedley deedley do dah! And of course, you’re right. But optimizing your hook up is important to really getting the best sounds. Most modelers have some sort of output selection. The POD series has the ability to select between Studio, Combo Poweramp, Combo Front, etc. Picking the right one for what how you’re hooked up is important. And just because you’re plugging into the effects return on your 2x12 combo doesn’t mean that selecting that option is the best way to go. Play around a little bit to find what works best with your rig as a whole.

Also, setting the output volume is important. If you’re trying to get a super clean sound and you have your output set so high that it overdrives the input of what you’re plugging into, you’ll never really be all that happy with your sound. Now this is probably in that little book that you ignored when you unwrapped your tone toy, but you want to set the output so that it doesn’t create unwanted distortion. The best way to do this is to plug into your rig (make sure ALL the possible volume knobs are turned all the way down), find a clean tone, crank the output volume on the modeler and slowly turn up the volume on your amp/poweramp. When you start to hear some distortion, back off just a hair. Your manual will be a bit more specific, but that’s enough to get you started.

Know Your Tone

So are you looking for the ultimate in Bulb-like djent? Or more for that Peterson “OMG he’s a blues god” tone? It doesn’t matter, the process is the same. Have an idea of what kind of tone you’re looking for. Look through the amp models that you have at your disposal. And play around a bit. If you know you want to use a Mesa Dual Rectifier, look for that model and adjust the basic amp settings. Tweak, tweak, and tweak some more until you’re happy with your sound. Remember, a lot of times it may not be the amp that you think you’ll want to use that gives the best sound. I really love Fender cleans, but I keep finding myself going to the Line 6 clean amps in my POD XT Live. I thought I’d hate ‘em, but they just seem to work for me. Here’s a good tip: If your modeler lets you save amp presets DO IT! It can be really handy to tweak an amp once, save it so that every time you select that amp you get that tone, and then when you’re tweaking, you have some ready made tones. It helps save you a few minutes of valuable tweak time.

Some tone basics

Remember that adding gain increases compression. Compression can be a great thing in moderation. But too much compression will just suck all the tone out of your sound. And too much gain can sound muddy, mushy, and just plain undefined. Some of you, myself included, are using some pretty high gain tones. It's just natural for us to grab that gain knob and crank it all the way up to 28. We just love gobs of gain. The way alot of modelers work now, you don't need to crank the gain. In fact, some great high gain tones can be had by doing 2 things.
1. Turn the gain down a bit
2. Use some sort of overdrive pedal to boost the input
Now on a POD, alot of the amp tones work almost like the real thing when you use one of the built in OD's to boost the input. It helps tighten up your tone a little and add a different characteristic to your gain.

For cleans, naturally everybody is different here. If you like a very clean sound, of course you want to turn the gain pretty much all the way down. Using a touch of gain can help add a little more jangle to the tone, but too much gain can get you into a more crunchy sound. And if crunch is your thing, then turn the gain up a bit. You can always use your volume knob on the guitar to get it to clean up a bit more if you need. If you want that SRV type of blues tone, don't forget that OD. I believe it was a Tube Screamer that he, and countless other blues legends, used to get a little more of that grit.

Effects

Ok, so now you have a really great creamy lead tone. But it’s missing something. How about a little ‘verb? Maybe some delay? Or a really crazy, whacked out flanger?!?! It’s a good idea to have an idea of what kind of effect or effects you may want with the patch you’re working on right now. Go through and spend some time on each effect that’s in the range of what you’re looking for and mess around with all the parameters. You’ll find some pretty cool sounds that way. And remember to keep your mind open. One of my most useful patches has a really cool tape echo with the tape warble cranked up a bit and this really weird tape eater effect. It’s been handy on more occasions than I can remember, and I wasn’t even the least bit interested in those effects at first. But after playing around I discovered that they were really cool and inspirational.

Name it

This is probably my favorite part. You can be as creative or boring as you want to be. Just remember to name it something that will remind you of what it is. If you have 50 clean tones and you name them Clean 1, Clean 2, Clean 3, etc. it’s going to be pretty hard to remember what each one is. Personally, I like to be creative. That whacked out tape eater tone I told you about….that one is named “Creepy Clean”, because it has this really creepy vibe to it. It’s great when you’re looking for a dark clean tone with some cheap horror movie like effects. Another one of my cleans is “CleanD up”. This one is a jangly clean with a bit of Delay (hence the D after clean). Just have fun with it and help yourself out.

Make Some Noise

Pretty self explanatory.

A few random tips to help you out

If you start getting frustrated, take a break. Go outside and get some fresh air, play with your favorite little kitty, take your girlfriend out to eat, whatever. Just get away from it and come back when you’re fresh.

Don’t expect a model to sound exactly like the amp it’s supposed to be. Remember that it’s a representation. Although, some modelers out there do a really great job.

If you can have more than one amp going at once, program one at a time. Then program your second amp to compliment the first amp. And remember, just because you can have 2 amps going doesn’t mean you need to for every patch.

Organize your patches. However you want to do this is good. Maybe put all your high gains in one bank, then your low gains, then cleans. Maybe have a bank with one of each. Or organize it by your set list. It’s all gravy. But a great tone is of no use if you can’t find it!

If your modeler has some sort of editing software, use it. It can make editing a lot easier if you’re not looking at a little screen and pushing small buttons. Put it up on your computer screen and use your mouse.

Post EQ can be a real life saver. Not really, but it can be a great way to tweak a tone that’s almost perfect. Maybe you’re using an amp that’s a tad harsh in the high end. But if you turn down the highs, you lose some of that magic tone. A little post EQ, when available, is an awesome way to preserve that sound you created and take that little bit of nastiness out. But remember to only use it to sort of clean up the edges. If you have to use serious post EQ to get a great tone, then you need to go back and tweak the tone itself some more.

It’s not a bad idea to have a few patches for different settings like Headphones, Studio, Bedroom Jam, Live. Some sounds will totally rock with headphones and suck with your band. Remember that volume does effect your tone, so different situations may need some knob turns in order to sound as good when you play it through your little 2 watt 1x2 combo as it does on your massive quadruple stack. That’s why having patches set up for different situations comes in handy

I think that about does it. Like I said earlier, there aren’t major details in here, but I think there are some good tips to help you find your way around to killer tones. Just remember to keep playing. The more often you create patches, the easier and quicker it’ll become. Good luck and happy djenting and tweedling. \m/

[The Dark Wolf]

Great post, especially with so many members (like moi) being users of modeling stuff nowadays, even if they generally use tube amps otherwise (like Bulb).


Stickified.

[Jason]

Nice Joe were did you copy and paste that from?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jason

Nice Joe were did you copy and paste that from?

written or not, it's all good

[nitelightboy]

I wrote it up a few months ago at work and forgot to post it. When I was cleaning out my computer I was like WHOA!!

I figured there have been alot of questions about tweaking tones because of poor factory presets the past few weeks, so I might as well post it up.

Of course I'll be more than happy to add anything that may have been left out or could use more of an explanation. Just PM me any info that should be added

[nitelightboy]

Added some basic tone tweaking tips.

[Alpo]

Some great advise there.

[Apophis]

Great post Thanks

[stuh84]

Originally Posted by nitelightboy

Remember that adding gain increases compression. Compression decreases sustain.

I like the guide, but this sentence is not true at all. Compression INCREASES sustain, because the idea behind compression on guitars is to "compress" the highest peaks of a signal, so whatever is at a lower volume can be brought up, without making your peaks louder.

Compression by its very nature makes signals sustain more. You would be more correct in saying compression decreases dynamics, because you can play a note, no matter how hard you play it (within reason and depending on the amount of compression there is), it will come out the same level. Increase in sustain, decrease in dynamics.

I think that one of the things that a lot of people miss, is that it isn't Amp vs Modelers. The best solution is often amp + modeler or some sort of modeler + rack units if you have neighbours.

[Michael]

Good post, Joe. This will come in handy with my new-ish PODxt, as I'm still getting the hang of it.

[nitelightboy]

Absolutely right Stuart.....Sorry, I'm half asleep this morning

[nitelightboy]

Originally Posted by Michael

Good post, Joe. This will come in handy with my new-ish PODxt, as I'm still getting the hang of it.

I think I may do something more specific for the POD XT series over the weekend. Stay tuned

[Christopher]

As a modeler man myself, I applaud your tips.

Here's a few I found important:

1. Tweak your patches at the volume you intend to use them at. Modelers seem to get pounded by the FM curves worse than tube amps (IMHO). There's nothing like tweaking out a killer patch in the bedroom and then taking it out live and having it go to shit at volume.

2. Learn to use EQ's properly. Learn the terminology and the various techniques (like boost and sweep). You can do a lot to EQ out some of the common modeler faults (buzzing, flub, etc).

3. Buy the best modeler you can afford and keep up with the changes in the technology. Modeling is technology just like any other computer that grows. Look out for software updates and leaps and bounds in ideology. Bottom line: NOT ALL MODELERS ARE CREATED EQUAL. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and some are vastly better at certain tones that others.

Oh yeah, when you get serious grab an Axe Fx and you won't have to stress or tweak nearly as much!

[Rick]

I don't know how I missed this, but Joe did a nice job on it.

[djpharoah]

This is definitely a great resource.

However I would like to add that to get the "best" tone out of your modeler, IMO, you need to plug your modeler into a Full-Range/Flat-Response amplifier. What happens is that guitar speakers in cabs/combos aren't full range speakers and are focused in the midrange which is where the guitar excels.

Full-Range/Flat-response amps are powered monitors, keyboard amplifiers and PA systems. These speakers are full range too letting your modeler ring out with great tone.

I have tried this out on various keyboard amps and I have to say it really does sound much better. Also some guitar amps are really great in that their pre-amps can be bypassed and their speakers are full range and very close to flat response. These include the Roland JC-120, certain Roland Cubes (10" or higher) and a few Randalls (according to the GC guy). These are the ones I know off and there might be more.

Just thought I would let you guys know about this.

[Rick]

Once I get my cabinet, I'll hook up my amp to it and use the Line 6 Edit to get the tone I'm looking for.

[FoxZero]

Good stuff dude! However I noticed this right when I'm going to sell my POD. I am still a fan of modelers, but me and tubes just get along better (now that I can afford one).

[nitelightboy]

Originally Posted by FoxZero

I am still a fan of modelers, but me and tubes just get along better (now that I can afford one).

I know what you mean. I bought my first tube a few months ago and have been totally loving it. Although the best tone I get is using my XTL going into the effects loop return and just using the amps power tubes to sweeten up the XTL.

[Scali]

I personally created a tone by taking a Marshall TSL ampmodel, which has quite some gain, but is too bass-heavy/muddy by itself to really do hi-gain/metal stuff. It's more of a vintage blues type of voicing.
So I placed an eq in front of the ampmodel, and boosted the treble going into the preamp section. Then I could get a nice hi-gain sound with relatively little gain on the TSL itself, and have a tight and snappy bass response, while still having a warm and soulful tone in the upper registers, and tons of harmonics to boot.

This is more or less what certain overdrive pedals do aswell, especially if you set their gain low, their output high, and their tone to max treble.

I stole this 'treble boost' idea from Brian May, who demonstrated his treble boost pedal on his Vox AC30. It really opened my eyes. The AC30 by itself is not a hi-gain amp at all, and sounds very 'woolly' when turned up. The treble booster mutated the amp into a killer rock/metal amp with tons of punch and singing lead tone with clarity and punch.

[Josh Lawson]

Originally Posted by djpharoah

This is definitely a great resource.

However I would like to add that to get the "best" tone out of your modeler, IMO, you need to plug your modeler into a Full-Range/Flat-Response amplifier. What happens is that guitar speakers in cabs/combos aren't full range speakers and are focused in the midrange which is where the guitar excels.

Full-Range/Flat-response amps are powered monitors, keyboard amplifiers and PA systems. These speakers are full range too letting your modeler ring out with great tone.

I have tried this out on various keyboard amps and I have to say it really does sound much better. Also some guitar amps are really great in that their pre-amps can be bypassed and their speakers are full range and very close to flat response. These include the Roland JC-120, certain Roland Cubes (10" or higher) and a few Randalls (according to the GC guy). These are the ones I know off and there might be more.

Just thought I would let you guys know about this.

I have read this theory on FRFR amps before and I am not convinced it is always correct. The guitar speaker is a huge part of the overall tonal voice, plus I really don't want a crossover and horn anywhere in my treble range (x-over point is usually at 2.5KHz, a crucial gain frequency).

I really do think that an FX return is almost always the best place to go into a guitar amp with a modeler, especially if that amp has separate send and return levels (only the return level matters though). My Randall GH200G2 has these levels controls and they are very good for keeping the Floorboard's volume down, and this in turn creates more preamp "headroom". This reason, along with Randall's toroid transformer, make the power section a very flat response, and an excellent match for any modeler . I agree with certain parts of FRFR thinking, just not the whole PA/keyboard amp part.

[Scali]

Originally Posted by Josh Lawson

I have read this theory on FRFR amps before and I am not convinced it is always correct. The guitar speaker is a huge part of the overall tonal voice, plus I really don't want a crossover and horn anywhere in my treble range (x-over point is usually at 2.5KHz, a crucial gain frequency).

Well the idea behind the modeler + FRFR setup is that the poweramp and speakers can be considered 'neutral', as in, being able to reproduce any kind of tone (much like when you play guitar music on your hifi system), and that the modeler models the selected amp and guitar speaker/cabinet characteristics.
As long as your FRFR setup is really FRFR, this theory works reasonably well, I found. But various keyboard amps, PA monitors etc aren't quite as flat and full-range as you'd want them to be.

Another aspect that I personally think is overlooked is that actual guitar speakers tend to be 10" or 12", and pretty heavy. These large speakers move a lot of air and give that 'bowel moving' experience.
Now, I have a pretty powerful hifi system and I've played guitar music pretty loud, but I never had that experience with my speakers, because they just didn't have that brutal power that a guitar cabinet has. The same goes for many FRFR systems. The speakers are 'light' in comparison to real guitar speakers. They might recreate the guitar tone faithfully, but you will not get the full experience (think of it as playing with headphones).

I think as far as guitar poweramps are concerned... as long as you pair them with guitar cabinets, I think most poweramps can be considered pretty neutral because the guitar cabinet has a much more limited frequency response and affects your tone more than the poweramp does.
I'd say that in most cases, preamp and speakers make up 80% of the amp's tone, if not more.

Since my tube amp broke down, I am playing with a Zoom G9.2tt over a Marshall VS230 transistor combo (I had it modded with a stereo serial effects loop, and I plug into the returns). I must say it gives quite acceptable results. I'm even thinking of replacing the cheap Goldback speakers with some 10" Celestions to get an even better tone. The speakers sound a tad thin, and I'd like it to sound more like 12" (I know the modeler sounds good, I created some patches with the fx loop return on my tube amp with 12" speakers, some of which got eerily close to the real thing, to the point where I had to check the settings on my amp/modeler to see which preamp I was playing over at the time).

[Josh Lawson]

Originally Posted by Scali

Well the idea behind the modeler + FRFR setup is that the poweramp and speakers can be considered 'neutral', as in, being able to reproduce any kind of tone (much like when you play guitar music on your hifi system), and that the modeler models the selected amp and guitar speaker/cabinet characteristics.
As long as your FRFR setup is really FRFR, this theory works reasonably well, I found. But various keyboard amps, PA monitors etc aren't quite as flat and full-range as you'd want them to be.

Another aspect that I personally think is overlooked is that actual guitar speakers tend to be 10" or 12", and pretty heavy. These large speakers move a lot of air and give that 'bowel moving' experience.
Now, I have a pretty powerful hifi system and I've played guitar music pretty loud, but I never had that experience with my speakers, because they just didn't have that brutal power that a guitar cabinet has. The same goes for many FRFR systems. The speakers are 'light' in comparison to real guitar speakers. They might recreate the guitar tone faithfully, but you will not get the full experience (think of it as playing with headphones).

I think as far as guitar poweramps are concerned... as long as you pair them with guitar cabinets, I think most poweramps can be considered pretty neutral because the guitar cabinet has a much more limited frequency response and affects your tone more than the poweramp does.
I'd say that in most cases, preamp and speakers make up 80% of the amp's tone, if not more.

Since my tube amp broke down, I am playing with a Zoom G9.2tt over a Marshall VS230 transistor combo (I had it modded with a stereo serial effects loop, and I plug into the returns). I must say it gives quite acceptable results. I'm even thinking of replacing the cheap Goldback speakers with some 10" Celestions to get an even better tone. The speakers sound a tad thin, and I'd like it to sound more like 12" (I know the modeler sounds good, I created some patches with the fx loop return on my tube amp with 12" speakers, some of which got eerily close to the real thing, to the point where I had to check the settings on my amp/modeler to see which preamp I was playing over at the time).

The problem with just plugging a modeler into a straight power amp is that most modelers don't have the DBu level to properly push a power amp. A few modelers I've seen run at -10 DBu, some go as high as +7 DBu, but very few seem to kick out the +16 to +23DBu needed to properly feed a true power amp.

Most guitar amp fx returns however, are set up for taking -10 DBu and the built in power amp seems to be centered around more mid frequencies. Modelers really aren't generally pre amps, except for the newer ones. Most guitar amps usually only have the gain/tone stack before the loop, and the boosting for the internal power amp post FX return, thus making the FX loop return the optimal jack to plug into.

[Reversewahwah]

I have blended my original rack setup with my POD XT PRO rig. My original rig is ADA MP-1 into a NS-2 loop, feeding a Real Tube II preamp into a MosValve power amp, driving a pair of Peavy 4x12 cabs. I use Rocktron Replifex and Intellifex for rack effects. They are transparent processors that don't ruin your tone. I have been very pleased with my tone from this rig.
I got married and had children, so I needed to get my tone at controlled volumes. We even use electronic drums as well. I ended up using the ADA MP-1 in a true bypass loop, so I can bypass the ADA preamp to use the POD XT PRO's tones as well. I use an Orange amp on clean and run my effects in parallel through the POD XT PRO. I run the main outs into a Mackie 1202 VLZ mixer, I send the analog outs into a stereo Marshall tube power amp powering a 4x12. I use a stereo Ernie Ball Musicman seven string. I run the piezo out into a POD XT as well. The outs on that POD XT also, go to the Mackie 1202 VLZ mixer. I mix the 2 pairs of stereo outs, using aux sends to PA/recorder. The sound is amplified into full range speakers. I also hear the stereo Marshall Tube amp. I tried to use live mode on the PODXT Pro. It didn't sound right. I stuck with Studio mode and it still sounds good through both the PA/recorder and the 4x12 cab.
I really like having the option of using my original tones of the ADA and the POD XT PRO in one system. Using the tube power amp is overkill, but it does work fine with my setup. I use my Ultimate Ears,in-ears or my EV monitors live. I have also experimented with the POD X3. Which would make my rig a little more streamlined. I considered the POD X3 Pro. I don't like the POD X3 Pro having to take up 3 rack spaces. Both the POD XT and the POD X3 sounded wicked plugged straight through the Stereo Marshall Tube amp. I found a Marshall 9005 dual mono block 50/50 power amp. It also runs 25/25. I got it for a great price used.
James Powell III
myspace.com/powelltrio
myspace.com/powellbros_formerlyjointchiefs

[Bevo]

Great post guys, very helpful!!!

Thanks