[Josh Lawson]

Originally Posted by djpharoah

This is definitely a great resource.

However I would like to add that to get the "best" tone out of your modeler, IMO, you need to plug your modeler into a Full-Range/Flat-Response amplifier. What happens is that guitar speakers in cabs/combos aren't full range speakers and are focused in the midrange which is where the guitar excels.

Full-Range/Flat-response amps are powered monitors, keyboard amplifiers and PA systems. These speakers are full range too letting your modeler ring out with great tone.

I have tried this out on various keyboard amps and I have to say it really does sound much better. Also some guitar amps are really great in that their pre-amps can be bypassed and their speakers are full range and very close to flat response. These include the Roland JC-120, certain Roland Cubes (10" or higher) and a few Randalls (according to the GC guy). These are the ones I know off and there might be more.

Just thought I would let you guys know about this.

I have read this theory on FRFR amps before and I am not convinced it is always correct. The guitar speaker is a huge part of the overall tonal voice, plus I really don't want a crossover and horn anywhere in my treble range (x-over point is usually at 2.5KHz, a crucial gain frequency).

I really do think that an FX return is almost always the best place to go into a guitar amp with a modeler, especially if that amp has separate send and return levels (only the return level matters though). My Randall GH200G2 has these levels controls and they are very good for keeping the Floorboard's volume down, and this in turn creates more preamp "headroom". This reason, along with Randall's toroid transformer, make the power section a very flat response, and an excellent match for any modeler . I agree with certain parts of FRFR thinking, just not the whole PA/keyboard amp part.

[Scali]

Originally Posted by Josh Lawson

I have read this theory on FRFR amps before and I am not convinced it is always correct. The guitar speaker is a huge part of the overall tonal voice, plus I really don't want a crossover and horn anywhere in my treble range (x-over point is usually at 2.5KHz, a crucial gain frequency).

Well the idea behind the modeler + FRFR setup is that the poweramp and speakers can be considered 'neutral', as in, being able to reproduce any kind of tone (much like when you play guitar music on your hifi system), and that the modeler models the selected amp and guitar speaker/cabinet characteristics.
As long as your FRFR setup is really FRFR, this theory works reasonably well, I found. But various keyboard amps, PA monitors etc aren't quite as flat and full-range as you'd want them to be.

Another aspect that I personally think is overlooked is that actual guitar speakers tend to be 10" or 12", and pretty heavy. These large speakers move a lot of air and give that 'bowel moving' experience.
Now, I have a pretty powerful hifi system and I've played guitar music pretty loud, but I never had that experience with my speakers, because they just didn't have that brutal power that a guitar cabinet has. The same goes for many FRFR systems. The speakers are 'light' in comparison to real guitar speakers. They might recreate the guitar tone faithfully, but you will not get the full experience (think of it as playing with headphones).

I think as far as guitar poweramps are concerned... as long as you pair them with guitar cabinets, I think most poweramps can be considered pretty neutral because the guitar cabinet has a much more limited frequency response and affects your tone more than the poweramp does.
I'd say that in most cases, preamp and speakers make up 80% of the amp's tone, if not more.

Since my tube amp broke down, I am playing with a Zoom G9.2tt over a Marshall VS230 transistor combo (I had it modded with a stereo serial effects loop, and I plug into the returns). I must say it gives quite acceptable results. I'm even thinking of replacing the cheap Goldback speakers with some 10" Celestions to get an even better tone. The speakers sound a tad thin, and I'd like it to sound more like 12" (I know the modeler sounds good, I created some patches with the fx loop return on my tube amp with 12" speakers, some of which got eerily close to the real thing, to the point where I had to check the settings on my amp/modeler to see which preamp I was playing over at the time).

[Josh Lawson]

Originally Posted by Scali

Well the idea behind the modeler + FRFR setup is that the poweramp and speakers can be considered 'neutral', as in, being able to reproduce any kind of tone (much like when you play guitar music on your hifi system), and that the modeler models the selected amp and guitar speaker/cabinet characteristics.
As long as your FRFR setup is really FRFR, this theory works reasonably well, I found. But various keyboard amps, PA monitors etc aren't quite as flat and full-range as you'd want them to be.

Another aspect that I personally think is overlooked is that actual guitar speakers tend to be 10" or 12", and pretty heavy. These large speakers move a lot of air and give that 'bowel moving' experience.
Now, I have a pretty powerful hifi system and I've played guitar music pretty loud, but I never had that experience with my speakers, because they just didn't have that brutal power that a guitar cabinet has. The same goes for many FRFR systems. The speakers are 'light' in comparison to real guitar speakers. They might recreate the guitar tone faithfully, but you will not get the full experience (think of it as playing with headphones).

I think as far as guitar poweramps are concerned... as long as you pair them with guitar cabinets, I think most poweramps can be considered pretty neutral because the guitar cabinet has a much more limited frequency response and affects your tone more than the poweramp does.
I'd say that in most cases, preamp and speakers make up 80% of the amp's tone, if not more.

Since my tube amp broke down, I am playing with a Zoom G9.2tt over a Marshall VS230 transistor combo (I had it modded with a stereo serial effects loop, and I plug into the returns). I must say it gives quite acceptable results. I'm even thinking of replacing the cheap Goldback speakers with some 10" Celestions to get an even better tone. The speakers sound a tad thin, and I'd like it to sound more like 12" (I know the modeler sounds good, I created some patches with the fx loop return on my tube amp with 12" speakers, some of which got eerily close to the real thing, to the point where I had to check the settings on my amp/modeler to see which preamp I was playing over at the time).

The problem with just plugging a modeler into a straight power amp is that most modelers don't have the DBu level to properly push a power amp. A few modelers I've seen run at -10 DBu, some go as high as +7 DBu, but very few seem to kick out the +16 to +23DBu needed to properly feed a true power amp.

Most guitar amp fx returns however, are set up for taking -10 DBu and the built in power amp seems to be centered around more mid frequencies. Modelers really aren't generally pre amps, except for the newer ones. Most guitar amps usually only have the gain/tone stack before the loop, and the boosting for the internal power amp post FX return, thus making the FX loop return the optimal jack to plug into.