[ElRay]

Originally Posted by Drew

They can freeze the CHECKING account, as well?

Yup. They claim they will never draw funds without your permission, but the trick is that by "confirming" your address you've given them permission to all but pull-out funds out at will.

They also claim that they need your checking/savings account to validate the shipping address. Not true. They also deny protections to sellers not shipping to "confirmed" addresses. Which leads to sellers only shipping to "confirmed" addresses, which adds to the pressure to give PayPal access to your checking/savings account.

The worst part, is that by signing-up with PayPal, you've also given-up your "charge back" privileges with your credit card company. If you get ripped off, and PayPal welches on their supposed protection (horror stories abound about them collecting on one end and refusing to refund on the other), you file a grievance with your credit card company and they do a charge-back, PayPal can seize any funds you have on your PayPal account, and/or file a draft against the checking/savings account you have on file.

If you must use PayPal, keep near zero funds in your account, and give them access to a "throw away" checking/savings account that you keep at as close to a zero balance as possible.

Ray

[Drew]

Total BS. I'd heard some horror stories about them in the past, but not really the legal framework within which they worked.

Unlelated - 50 points for the avatar/custom title.

[bulb]

hahahah +123453

arthur djent wins

[Ken]

Indeed!

[eleven59]

Originally Posted by Drew

Total BS. I'd heard some horror stories about them in the past, but not really the legal framework within which they worked.

Unlelated - 50 points for the avatar/custom title.

Agreed, I'm just finishing up reading through all 5 books again now (part way through the 5th book). I read them about once a year, at least

[ElRay]

Originally Posted by Drew

Total BS. I'd heard some horror stories about them in the past, but not really the legal framework within which they worked.

The NY lawsuit that PayPal lost still hasn't been finalized, I'm not sure if the other five iniitated by state's Attourney Generals have been finalized. I know the one here in Illinois was resolved under a year ago and just resulted in agreements regarding changes in wording, ability to see the TOS before signing-up, etc., but no monetary claims; however, Paypal's TOS still states:

4.4 Risk of Reversals, Chargebacks and Claims. When you receive a payment, you are liable to PayPal for the full amount of the payment plus any Fees if the payment is later invalidated for any reason. This means that you will be responsible for the amount of the payment, plus the applicable Fees listed in section 8 of this Agreement if you lose a Claim or a Chargeback, or if there is a Reversal of the payment. You agree to allow PayPal to recover any amounts due to PayPal by debiting your Balance. If there are insufficient funds in your Balance to cover your liability, you agree to reimburse PayPal through other means. If the transaction is eligible under the Seller Protection Policy in section 11, PayPal will cover the amount of the Reversal or Chargeback and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable.

4.5 Chargebacks Process. In the event of a Chargeback, we will determine whether we should dispute the Chargeback with the credit card company. If we dispute the Chargeback, we will place a temporary hold on the disputed funds in your Balance until the credit card company makes a decision. The credit card company, not paypal, will determine who wins the Chargeback

...

Chargeback Fee $10.00 USD per Chargeback filed unless you are protected by the Seller Protection Policy.

...

13.2 Assumption of Rights. If PayPal pays out a Claim, Reversal or Chargeback that you file against a recipient of your payment, you agree that PayPal assumes your rights against the recipient and third parties related to the payment, and may pursue those rights directly or on your behalf, in PayPal’s discretion.

Things have gotten better since they've lost the lawsuits (the fact that I can read the TOS without logging in is huge), and things work very well for the vast majority of people that use the service. But, when things go bad, they go very bad and granting PayPal access to any funds not related to the actual transaction is a risk I'm not willing to take.

Originally Posted by Drew

Unlelated - 50 points for the avatar/custom title.

Originally Posted by eleven59

Agreed, I'm just finishing up reading through all 5 books again now (part way through the 5th book). I read them about once a year, at least

It used to be a annual occurrance here too. Three pregnancies and two kids tends to zap available free time. I think the last pure enjoyment book I read was the last Terry Goodkind installment in the "Sword of Truth" series.

Ray

[Drew]

Look forward to the day you can read the series out loud to your kids, sir.

You had to log in (i.e - already have agreed to them) to read the Terms of Service? I'm surprised that's even legal.

[ElRay]

Originally Posted by Drew

Look forward to the day you can read the series out loud to your kids, sir.

It will take time. The three-year-old doesn't quite get "It tastes almost, but not quite, entirely unlike chocolate milk." Shel Silverstein still needs some explaining (I actually scared her a bit with Sarah Sylvia Cynthia Stout wouldn't take the garbage out.). One day ...

You had to log in (i.e - already have agreed to them) to read the Terms of Service? I'm surprised that's even legal.

That's the way it used to be. They'd also change it without informing anybody. Being able to see the TOS from the home page was a result of the IL or NY lawsuits. Changing the way people are notified was part of the IL lawsuit. I'm not too familiar with the with the other four state-sponsored lawsuits.

Ray