So what the hell is the deal with Bugera?

[haffner1]

I wanted to put off getting a head so I can check out one of those Trirecs coming out. Bet they have been talking about them and showing them off for the last 6 months with no indication of when they are actually going to be delivered. Not only that, but everything looks like it is going over to that "Infinium" line on their site, but none of that has been delivered either. MF is sold out of most of their heads and doesn't seem to be getting any more in. I can't help but think that this break in production must be hurting their business at this point because it has been going on for months.

Does anyone know when they are finally going to produce this stuff? Maybe I am just wasting my time waiting and I should look for something else.

[MaxOfMetal]

They're having issues with the FCC apparently. Most likely due to thier not-so-original designs.

If you're dying for a Recto, just pick up a used one. You're in the ol' USA so you can easily ffind one for $1k or less.

[th3m1ke]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

They're having issues with the FCC apparently. Most likely due to thier not-so-original designs.

If you're dying for a Recto, just pick up a used one. You're in the ol' USA so you can easily ffind one for $1k or less.

X2 for sure. The used market is so in favor for buyers right now you should have no issues snagging a nice Rectifier. Depending on which one you would want, you could snag a nice one for a good price.

[Andromalia]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

They're having issues with the FCC apparently. Most likely due to thier not-so-original designs.

Not sure, nothing new in Europe either.

[Kali Yuga]

I sincerely hope that company goes under.

[beneharris]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

I sincerely hope that company goes under.

why?

[Opeth666]

Originally Posted by beneharris

why?

this guy is always knocking Bugera, they must've done something to him personally to piss him off.

anyways yeah the break inbetween is kind of odd, I know they are having FCC problems with the trirec and Magician but what about the 6262s and 333xls?

[Dvaienat]

I second the used Rectifier.

[Hybrid138]

With all the Strat, Tele, Les Paul, SG, RG, etc. copied bodies how can they get sued? I know they are trying to replicate certain amps but they are aesthetically different and aren't spot-on copies of the tones. Wouldn't the same argument go for Axe-fx and modelers if this is going on?

[Larrikin666]

Originally Posted by Hybrid138

With all the Strat, Tele, Les Paul, SG, RG, etc. copied bodies how can they get sued? I know they are trying to replicate certain amps but they are aesthetically different and aren't spot-on copies of the tones. Wouldn't the same argument go for Axe-fx and modelers if this is going on?

Guitar companies get sued all the time by Fender and Gibson for Les Paul and Strat copies.

You're allowed to try to replicate the tone of the amp. You aren't allowed to copy schematics...and that's what Bugera does.

[Albionic]

5150 = repackaged soldano

peavey copy soldano and sell it cheaper then bugera do the same to them

bugera do have slight differences to the amps they are based on digi reverb etc.

bugera offers valve tone to those that normally couldn't afford it so thats a good thing

saying all that if i was in the us i'd buy a used peavey or mesa etc but here in the uk i can buy 2 new 6262's for the price of 1 used 5150 almost

[Larrikin666]

Originally Posted by Albionic

5150 = repackaged soldano

peavey copy soldano and sell it cheaper then bugera do the same to them

bugera do have slight differences to the amps they are based on digi reverb etc.

bugera offers valve tone to those that normally couldn't afford it so thats a good thing

saying all that if i was in the us i'd buy a used peavey or mesa etc but here in the uk i can buy 2 new 6262's for the price of 1 used 5150 almost

The 5150 is definitely based off of the SLO, but the schematics are quite different. The basic design of the preamp is similar, but the additional of the resonance and presence controls required them to go in a different direction. You can hear some pretty significant different between the two when you play them side by side, and those differences were intentional.

That's not Bugera did. They copied the name, schematics, and aesthetics of amplifiers. You might be able to get away with trying to do one or two of those, but definitely not all three. Behringer has been trouble with the FCC before for some shady things. If things go south for them, then they just start up new small companies with different names to start the process all over again.

[op1e]

Kinda been wanting a 6262 for a while, just hate that they replaced the Resonance control with reverb, as compared to the 5150. I have no use for it. I order through AMS or Sweetwater and they never have them in stock.

[ShadowFactoryX]

Originally Posted by Larrikin666

You're allowed to try to replicate the tone of the amp. You aren't allowed to copy schematics...and that's what Bugera does.

Then where did they get Infinium from?

My knowledge of amps may be limited.
But in that knowledge no one else seems to be mass producing amps with that kind of feature. If I'm wrong, then I'll stand corrected.

So what if Bugera essentially copies amp tones.
The features are more than what other companies offer. They've taken highly regarded designs for what they offer best, and added to it, and made it more affordable.
In my book, thats just business. If you've ever said "man i love product x so much, i wish it had ____ on it" then you have no place to judge here.

I don't own one yet, but a 333XL is on my list as the amp I want the most currently.
Price, features, tone.

The Magician and Tri-Rec have been longed for for some time now, I hope they get released for their sake, they've built up quite the hype.
Though I do hope in the near future they design something solidly original, or start mimicking some quality botique amps (engl, vht/fryette, diezel)

[Larrikin666]

Originally Posted by ShadowFactoryX

Then where did they get Infinium from?

My knowledge of amps may be limited.
But in that knowledge no one else seems to be mass producing amps with that kind of feature. If I'm wrong, then I'll stand corrected.

So what if Bugera essentially copies amp tones.
The features are more than what other companies offer. They've taken highly regarded designs for what they offer best, and added to it, and made it more affordable.
In my book, thats just business. If you've ever said "man i love product x so much, i wish it had ____ on it" then you have no place to judge here.

I don't own one yet, but a 333XL is on my list as the amp I want the most currently.
Price, features, tone.

The Magician and Tri-Rec have been longed for for some time now, I hope they get released for their sake, they've built up quite the hype.
Though I do hope in the near future they design something solidly original, or start mimicking some quality botique amps (engl, vht/fryette, diezel)

Your knowledge is definitely rather limited. Tube fault indication was being used in ENGLs for years before Bugera decided to try it out.

No one said they weren't allowed to mimic tones. That's common practice when designing an amp. They did far more than that though. You don't seem to understand that copying a schematic is not the same thing. That would be like me taking "Stairway to Heaven", playing it tuned down a half step, and calling it "Escalator to Heaven". I'm pretty sure I'd still need to expect a court summons with Robert Plant's name on it at some point.

[SirMyghin]

Originally Posted by Larrikin666

Guitar companies get sued all the time by Fender and Gibson for Les Paul and Strat copies.

You're allowed to try to replicate the tone of the amp. You aren't allowed to copy schematics...and that's what Bugera does.

Fender actually lost the trademark suits on the strat, tele, and P-bass because they neglected to follow up on them, and then were ruled classic shapes usable by anyone. It had something to do with Leo possibly only trademarking the headstock at the time also. That is why there are so many exact copy fender shapes out there. Gibson has been a lot more dilligent over the years, and trademarked it all.

If Bugera had a schematic they could call their own I would be surprised. I share the sentiment of animousity towards them.

[Larrikin666]

Originally Posted by SirMyghin

Fender actually lost the trademark suits on the strat, tele, and P-bass because they neglected to follow up on them, and then were ruled classic shapes usable by anyone. It had something to do with Leo possibly only trademarking the headstock at the time also. That is why there are so many exact copy fender shapes out there. Gibson has been a lot more dilligent over the years, and trademarked it all.

That sounds right. I remember the Les Paul copies that Ibanez and ESP were making for a long time. I'd still like the find one of those someday.

[aiur55]

Isn't the infinium system a bit more than tube fault indication? It also auto biases tubes. Much like the system Orange announced at the same time. I THINK they said that during NAMM. Not sure though.

While their parent company (Behringer) has been known to copy schematics, I don't think Bugera has actually copied a schematic off of anything. Would love a link to proof they have though.

[Rook]

But honestly, I think there's a fine line between something being inspired by something, something replicating something and something copying something. I'm not saying which I feel Bugera falls into because this has been beaten to death...

As for FCC, there ARE a couple of lawsuits in the works for Bugera being accused of DIRECT copying, however companies such as Marshall, Blackstar and Hughes and Kettner have suffered similar action in the past and nobody would know. These days, these things don't often go through, but this is why they're scarce. I think their naming is probably more open to criticism! There are some NOS amps arous that I've seen in the UK on my travels. If anyone's having difficulty finding one I'll gladly help.

No I'm not a dealer for Bugera, or any Behringer products, there unfortunately are too many reliability issues involve across the Behringer company.

[Larrikin666]

Originally Posted by aiur55

Isn't the infinium system a bit more than tube fault indication? It also auto biases tubes. Much like the system Orange announced at the same time. I THINK they said that during NAMM. Not sure though.

While their parent company (Behringer) has been known to copy schematics, I don't think Bugera has actually copied a schematic off of anything. Would love a link to proof they have though.

Yeah. It's a bit more involved. They're essentially incorporating a Tybesync Bias Engine system into their amps from the beginning. If they managed to replicate that system cheaply and maintain the same reliability, then I'd be impressed.

I guess we'll see if the FCC ends up making them cease and desist or not. Bugera's schematics haven't been widely leaked like Peavey's yet, so posting them online would get me and this forum in trouble. You should ask a local tech if you can take a peak though. You'll see how similar they are.

[Albionic]

i've not seen any evidence that schematics were stolen but i guess its possible. i know the inside layouts are different.

tbh someone was gonna challenge the big boys with a range of quality cheap valve amps eventually i guess the guys at marshall peavey and mesa will have to go back to the drawing board and give us a reason not to buy bugera.

[Rook]

I doubt 'the big boys' charge all of that money because of some evil regime. Imagine how much time goes into coming up with one of those amplifiers. I'm study electrical engineering for example and even as far into that as I am, I don't feel I could confidently build an amp from scratch. There's research and development - amp companies are businesses so in order to keep making what they want, they have to make it something a consumer would want - a company cant produce amps for us without our money. Then there's all the usual business crap, rent and rates, phone bills, they have to pay experts to design the amps and the hands that build them, companies like Mesa have to fund patents, they have to keep the tube manufacturers on their feet, you get the idea. Then there's advertising, very sought after endorsees have to be earning money or they can't use your product, you never met a full Peavey endorsee that works in a supermarket.

When you consider what all of that costs, and the fact that in the end you get something so complex, built to such a high standard and meticulously QC'd all for a month or two's worth of wages (if you earn shit all like me)....? I'll pay for that any day.

When you buy an amp from 'the big boys' you dont just buy a box of tubes and wires, you get the product of all the above.

As much as I understand the 'copy' Market, it's great that you can get a good soundalike for your Christmas/birthday money budget, amazing in fact, they didn't have to go through all the expensive processes (including the price of a "Made in [insert western country]" sticker) to bring that to you and you have to remember that is why they cost what they do.

I'm not saying I object to companies like Behringer on principle at all, I just strongly believe that buying 'the real thing' to a certain extent can be very good value for money even when it doesn't seem to be. I absolutely realise there are a couple of companies that take this too far and use their pricing as something to exclude a certain area of the Market, but for the most part, those described as 'the big boy's and even a couple of the boutique brands (Bogner, Diezel, what have you) I don't feel fall into this category.



If any of that sounds like I'm being a prick, it's not meant to. I always try and keep my posts brief when typing on my iPhone because I always make typos!

[Larrikin666]

^

Very well articulated. As someone who works for a large electronics manufacturer, I agree with everything you said.

[ss22]

Sorry to derail the conversation slightly but does anyone have a list of exactly what famous amp each bugera model is trying to copy?
I presume the 6262 is copying the 6505...that much seems obvious...

[Curt]

Originally Posted by Larrikin666

That sounds right. I remember the Les Paul copies that Ibanez and ESP were making for a long time. I'd still like the find one of those someday.

ESP still makes killer les paul copies that you can get hold of under the "Edwards" and "Navigator" namesakes. I actually can't recommend Edwards enough. A friend of mine has a John Sykes style LP from them and it kicks major amounts of ass and is better than my old gibby vintage mahogany by far.

Originally Posted by aiur55

Isn't the infinium system a bit more than tube fault indication? It also auto biases tubes. Much like the system Orange announced at the same time. I THINK they said that during NAMM. Not sure though.

While their parent company (Behringer) has been known to copy schematics, I don't think Bugera has actually copied a schematic off of anything. Would love a link to proof they have though.

Infinium is more or less the same thing as engl's tube fault indicator, but I may be wrong about that.

the 6262 that I took a look at had the exact same inner workings as a 5150 II/6505+ except it didn't have a resonance knob.

Honestly, the 6262 sounded smoother than the 6505+ I had but i'm pretty sure that had a lot to do with the tubes the dude who owned it put in there.