DAR Amplifaction Future Breed Machines linup (Fredrik Thordendal content).

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by Animus

BUt then again the original promised release dates were not met and delayed repeatedly after that so refunds should be on the table if they didn't hold up to their side of the deal. If they originally said it would be a year plus until they are released then yes I would think the deposit would be non-refundable.

That's not really how "non-refundable deposits" work. Maybe in a perfect world.

[HighGain510]

Originally Posted by Animus

BUt then again the original promised release dates were not met and delayed repeatedly after that so refunds should be on the table if they didn't hold up to their side of the deal. If they originally said it would be a year plus until they are released then yes I would think the deposit would be non-refundable.

Poor management, setbacks in the prototyping stage, issues with parts suppliers etc. all happen quite frequently with the release of new products. If you believe otherwise, you're misinformed, and it applies to both physical and digital items. When they asked for deposits it was to secure the very first units and without knowing the inner workings of DAR but knowing that they are a relatively new/small company, I would think it's safe to assume they were using said deposit money in the start-up costs of the development of the new product.

Most folks should have figured that their money was going into getting the new product they all wanted off the ground, once that money is spent by the company emailing them repeatedly likely won't get your money back, they'll probably tell you to sit and wait for the product that you agreed to purchase. Not saying it's right, but that is often how paid pre-orders work especially if it's a completely new product, they probably don't want their first dozen orders cancelling them and owing back that money when they've already sunk it into getting production of the units going. If they didn't need the money to fund the product, they wouldn't have even had to take money for pre-orders.... that also should have been telling about their company's financial situation IMO, if they had enough cash in their reserves they wouldn't have had to ask for paid deposits for a pre-order list.

[TemjinStrife]

This makes me wish I had been able to snag a Tuzzia before this whole thing blew up.

Also, what part of "non-refundable" do people not understand?

[cyb]

since when was it non refundable? I was able to get my deposit back.

[Animus]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

That's not really how "non-refundable deposits" work. Maybe in a perfect world.

Yeah, I totally get that which is why I never preorder anything. I only buy real products, especially not ones "in development".

[signalgrey]

im going to repost this from before. It was november last year from Mike a few pages back:

"Hey Guys,

So here's the update.... We will be shipping ALL paid for FBM100 Heads within 30days. Everything is near finished up and they are truly outstanding amps.

I will be in Sweden during December to do the final voicings on the pedal. My flight is booked for Nov 30th, but may move according to the time frame of the guys in Sweden.

As a additional note, We have Hired Jeff Hilligan (the former production manager/partner from Egnater Amps to DAR) Under his oversight they were able to take the US made production products from a 9 month leadtime to 2 weeks. I understand the frustration you guys have and actively made the requisite changes to address this.

I assure you the gear is worth the wait. But for those who cannot, just drop me an email... mike@daramps.com and we will find a resolution for ya. Or just give me a call 650 814-1712

The technology is awesome stuff and the gear is outstanding. It is also the most advanced pedal (with 3 DSP's/ tube preamp/ etc) possibly ever conceived.

As an engineer, I have been 100% focused on the technology and delivering to you guys the best possible tone imaginable. DAR will make greater effort to address the other concerns you guys have voiced. Please, we are always welcome to your input as well.... just give us a call! Ask for Mike...

Thanks,
Mike"

well im still waiting for a resolution.

[signalgrey]

Had a few emails with Mike a day or two ago. We did reach a resolution that was both amicable and satisfactory. While I think things overall could have gone better, Im glad they were resolved. I really would like to do business with Mike in the future, and this has helped solidified that for me.

Mike, good luck shipping and keeping everyone happy during this first run, I look forward to working with again.

[Wings of Obsidian]

I might save up and get one of these DAR products now...

[Holle]

Glad to hear you got this sorted out to your satisfaction, signalgrey.

I have the preamp pedal on preorder - second run though, so I guess it'll take quite a while more until it arrives. Luckily I'm not in a hurry, just hope it arrives until guitartracking for my band's second album starts. The main reason I ordered it is to get an IR loader hardware with minimal lag so I can use it for monitoring. And the second reason is the hope that it sounds as awesome as it is made out to be!

[Krucifixtion]

Mike said he would gladly refund me, but I'm still waiting. Haven't gotten any money back yet.

[signalgrey]

Originally Posted by Krucifixtion

Mike said he would gladly refund me, but I'm still waiting. Haven't gotten any money back yet.

Originally Posted by Holle

Glad to hear you got this sorted out to your satisfaction, signalgrey.

I have the preamp pedal on preorder - second run though, so I guess it'll take quite a while more until it arrives. Luckily I'm not in a hurry, just hope it arrives until guitartracking for my band's second album starts. The main reason I ordered it is to get an IR loader hardware with minimal lag so I can use it for monitoring. And the second reason is the hope that it sounds as awesome as it is made out to be!

I still havent gotten the promised refund. He has my account information, the amp has been sold (and posted up here by the new owner). This has put a huge stop in basically everything im trying to do right now. So im starting to lose my calm demeanor about this. I really hope things change soon.

[meambobbo]

any valid contract requires a meeting of the minds. a pre-order or deposit should carry an implicit reasonable timeline in line with similar items, unless one is made explicit. from what i've read there was no explicit timeline, but there were indications from DAR when their product would ship. given they've missed both reasonable timelines for similar products AND their own indications of when the product would be available, i would argue any pre-order contracts were null and void and they need to refund the deposits.

it makes no sense to think someone could submit a pre-order deposit and the company never provide them with anything and not have to legally refund the deposit. the contract was that the buyer is purchasing a good and expects it to be available at some point in the future. if that time comes and there is no product available, there is no longer any contract.

"non-refundable" simply means you don't have the option to back out of the contract within the expected timeline. It's like buying something without a return policy. You can't get your money back PROVIDED THE SELLER ACTUALLY PROVIDES YOU WITH THE MERCHANDISE. If you give a clerk $5 for a pack of smokes, and he says he will give them to you but at some indefinite point in the future, there's clearly something wrong with that. all contracts and transactions have implicit understandings, one of which is when property is exchanged. it can never be indefinitely into the future, because that makes no sense.

agreeing to refund a deposit and then not doing so is quite simply fraud. they should do so within 30 days of the agreement.

whatever production issues DAR is having, they might be adding legal issues on top of that. if there weren't working prototypes and endorsements by big-name bands, i would have thought the entire operation was a sham. still might be...

[Mazzy]

Just keep emailing and calling Mike. He's a very busy guy, and there are dozens of people wanting refunds right now, so he's probably losing track of everybody.

[Krucifixtion]

Originally Posted by meambobbo

any valid contract requires a meeting of the minds. a pre-order or deposit should carry an implicit reasonable timeline in line with similar items, unless one is made explicit. from what i've read there was no explicit timeline, but there were indications from DAR when their product would ship. given they've missed both reasonable timelines for similar products AND their own indications of when the product would be available, i would argue any pre-order contracts were null and void and they need to refund the deposits.

it makes no sense to think someone could submit a pre-order deposit and the company never provide them with anything and not have to legally refund the deposit. the contract was that the buyer is purchasing a good and expects it to be available at some point in the future. if that time comes and there is no product available, there is no longer any contract.

"non-refundable" simply means you don't have the option to back out of the contract within the expected timeline. It's like buying something without a return policy. You can't get your money back PROVIDED THE SELLER ACTUALLY PROVIDES YOU WITH THE MERCHANDISE. If you give a clerk $5 for a pack of smokes, and he says he will give them to you but at some indefinite point in the future, there's clearly something wrong with that. all contracts and transactions have implicit understandings, one of which is when property is exchanged. it can never be indefinitely into the future, because that makes no sense.

agreeing to refund a deposit and then not doing so is quite simply fraud. they should do so within 30 days of the agreement.

whatever production issues DAR is having, they might be adding legal issues on top of that. if there weren't working prototypes and endorsements by big-name bands, i would have thought the entire operation was a sham. still might be...

Yes...the point is that when I gave them my money for pre-order there was a general timeline of when all this stuff would be done by, but now if you ask them when the preamp pedals will be done they will just tell you "we have no definite date yet". I was told almost 2 months ago that a refund would be no problem. I already sent countless emails to multiple people with my info and original invoice, so there is no confusion. I shouldn't have to start calling them on the phone and harassing them, but I guess that's what it's gonna come down to. I had a similar sort of experience years ago when ordering an amp case from a company. They kept giving me the run around saying it was done and it would ship soon and then they told me it did ship...blah blah blah. Kept emailing them, but I finally called the guy and talked to him personally and it seems like that lights a fire under certain people's asses. I'm not gonna wait another whole year by the time these things are actually done if they ever are. I already waited a whole year and I want something now.

[warhead78]

I'd settle for an honest update every now and then. Its the absolute lack of any consideration concerning people like myself who sent deposits in good faith that gets to me. I can wait, but throw me a damn bone every once in a while. This is where so many small companies get it wrong - COMMUNICATION

-rant over

[Mazzy]

I was told this summer for the pedals. They are concentrating on the 100H heads at the moment.

[athawulf]

This summer? Mike posted on the DAR facebook group that all first run heads would be shipping within 30 days of March 19th.

It was my understanding from personal conversation with him that the first pedal run would follow the first 100 run after a little more research and development.

I'm curious if it was the DAR guys who gave you the summer date, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

[Mazzy]

It was Mike himself, via email, only about a week back. I'm on preorder for the pedal and the expanded amplifier, and will probably be adding a cabinet.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by Mazzy

he's probably losing track of everybody.

It's a sad state of affairs when this can even be considered a reasonable excuse.

I have to keep in contact with at least 50 folks a week, over six departments, and help manage up to two dozen staff members and coworkers. This ain't difficult and shouldn't be for an entire company.

Not speaking specifically to what's happening here, I've just noticed that excuse come up far too often lately when a builder can't keep their e-mail straight.

[Mazzy]

Yeah, he could be running things a bit more smoothly, but if you're needing a refund, call him instead of sending multiple emails and waiting. I had them refund something I preordered too, and it took a single conversation. Some people aren't great at handling things through email. Sure, you might, and Mike probably should work on that, but if you want to get things done, talking to someone directly is ALWAYS the best route. Mike is a breeze to deal with. Handling constant company shifts, hundreds of customers, and engineering/building multiple products in the FBM line simultaneously can't be a simple task. I deal with less than that as a industrial engineering tech and get lost amidst emails, jobs, contacts, etc. It's not an excuse, but a reasonable explanation.

[signalgrey]

Originally Posted by Mazzy

Yeah, he could be running things a bit more smoothly, but if you're needing a refund, call him instead of sending multiple emails and waiting. I had them refund something I preordered too, and it took a single conversation. Some people aren't great at handling things through email. Sure, you might, and Mike probably should work on that, but if you want to get things done, talking to someone directly is ALWAYS the best route. Mike is a breeze to deal with. Handling constant company shifts, hundreds of customers, and engineering/building multiple products in the FBM line simultaneously can't be a simple task. I deal with less than that as a industrial engineering tech and get lost amidst emails, jobs, contacts, etc. It's not an excuse, but a reasonable explanation.

yes well sadly I live in Korea and making contact internationally via phone calls can be...troublesome. Mike does seem to be a nice guy, i dont have a bad thing to say about his personality or him as a human being. I still believe that all this is just part of a painful birthing process. I still want to work with him in the future, but just not right now. Now I need a refund so I can keep things going for me.

[HighGain510]

Originally Posted by signalgrey

yes well sadly I live in Korea and making contact internationally via phone calls can be...troublesome. Mike does seem to be a nice guy, i dont have a bad thing to say about his personality or him as a human being. I still believe that all this is just part of a painful birthing process. I still want to work with him in the future, but just not right now. Now I need a refund so I can keep things going for me.

I still don't understand this situation... other folks have called him and gotten their money refunded. You've been posting and posting about how much of a hardship this has been and how badly you need your money back, but working out a time to call him is that much trouble for you to handle? C'mon man, you've said the same thing over and over about how bad you need your cash back and how he's not responding to your emails, people have told you what YOU need to do to get it back so at this point your next post in this thread should hopefully be "I called Mike and got my refund." and not "ZOMG I can't understand why everyone else keeps getting their money back and I'm being ignored?!"

While it might be more of a pain for you, there is a single, very simple, fix for your problem. Why not handle your business offline instead of posting that you're not getting results still from a method that clearly wasn't working for anyone else either?

Also for the whole "living in Korea" being your excuse, my brother was in Korea for over a year and I had absolutely zero issue getting in touch with him over the phone or via skype and he was active duty military on top of that so he only had certain hours available. It's a pretty lame excuse to blame it on being in a different time zone/country, figure out the time difference and make the call. If it means staying up late or waking up early to make the call when Mike or whomever at DAR you're dealing with will be in their office, I would think that minor inconvenience would be preferable to not having your money.

Not trying to be rude, but half of the posts in the last few pages have just been bumps from you complaining about how you can't seem to get your money back and all the hardship it is causing you, yet it's been made clear others who actually TALKED to the guys at DAR have been able to get theirs back somehow. Take personal responsibility for your issue and handle it, no one else on the forum can do it for you so continually repeating that after just emailing them that you aren't getting money back isn't helping anything. If you truly value getting your money back, it sounds like you're going to have to actually pick up the phone and get it from them while you have them on the line, as inconvenient as that may be.

I have no connection to DAR and I think that ignoring you and others on the refund is shitty, and they ....ed up big time on this whole FBM lineup between delays and miscommunication, but repeat postings on here won't fix any of that.

[Larrikin666]

Saw this conversation about the preamps on Rig-Talk. Original post was asking Mike when the pedals would start to ship.

Originally Posted by cold machine

So...I called him and he answered. Mike is very, very cool, (as those that have spoken to him have stated often), and we spent about 45 minutes discussing the 100-H's and the PX,(which does even more cool s**t than advertised. There are 80 or so heads in line in front of the FBM-PX and then 30/40 hours of engineeringin order to nail the design down so that it will stay below the $900.00 thresh-hold and still be quality gear. Sounds very much as thought it will be worth the wait. Hope I didn't put anybody's amp behind schedule.
Thank you Mike for your time.

Sounds like anyone on the preorder list for the PX should expect a LONG wait. 80 heads seems like a lot consider how few we've seen showing up on different forums.

[warhead78]

Wow, and here I was thinking the FBM-PX was an engineered/designed product when I paid a deposit, silly me...

[Lern2swim]

Originally Posted by warhead78

Wow, and here I was thinking the FBM-PX was an engineered/designed product when I paid a deposit, silly me...

I just need to chine in here and ask what gave you that impression? I have my own opinions about how long things are taking them and their communication with customers, but they made it very clear that they did not have a completed design ready to go.