[Dylan7620]

ok so this got brought up on jemsite, and they started discussing that the first floyd didn't even have fine tuners. players like brad gillis (night ranger, ozzy) use them. but i can't seem to find a big enough picture of them to get a good look.

i know some of you (noodles and eaolian come to mind) that prefer the older non-floating design. is there and advantage to the ones without the fine tuners? are they still avalible somewhere or are they super rare?

being the "kid" i am at only 21 i can't remember that far back any help is greatly appriciated.

[OzzyC]

im only 14 so...i might know even less then you

but the only difference i could possibly think of is that you would have to unlock tune and relock the nut every time you threw your guitar out of tune

[Dylan7620]

well, i figured as much..... but i thought maybe there was some reson to it. like how satch prefers the original profile edge for comfort, or how eddie van halen prefers the tone of the non floating floyd.

[OzzyC]

i think i remember seeing one somewhere (not in person) and the only design difference (that i can remember) is that it doesnt have the 'whale tail'...so it may be a little more comfortable...maybe

[jacksonplayer]

The Floyds without fine tuners were only made for a couple of years or so. Apart from the fine tuners, the Floyd is really no different than any other two-point floating trem design, such as the Wilkinson or the trem that comes on most modern Strats, though Floyds have wider stud spacing than most non-locking trems, for some reason. I'm not sure, but the Floyd might have been the original two-point trem. BTW, any trem that balances string tension with the tension from springs in the back is a "floating" trem, unless you block the trem from moving higher in pitch.

[Dylan7620]

Originally Posted by jacksonplayer

The Floyds without fine tuners were only made for a couple of years or so. Apart from the fine tuners, the Floyd is really no different than any other two-point floating trem design, such as the Wilkinson or the trem that comes on most modern Strats, though Floyds have wider stud spacing than most non-locking trems, for some reason. I'm not sure, but the Floyd might have been the original two-point trem. BTW, any trem that balances string tension with the tension from springs in the back is a "floating" trem, unless you block the trem from moving higher in pitch.

no different than other 2-point trems? there must be a reason why so many love the original floyd over others.
...and by your definition a vintage strat trem is a "floating trem" the original floyds did not pull up, letting them rest on the body. If you palm the trem nothing happens. Vai was the one to dig out a cavity behind underneith his charvel green meanie allowing him to do extreme pull ups and having tuning to be balanced by the strings and springs alone, making it "floating" if you palm the bridge it will go out of tune.

[Metal Ken]

actually, the strat bridges are designed to float a little bit, they sit up above the body a bit when adjusted right allowing for a bit of pull back (not much though.)

[Dylan7620]

^ ya, i tried to setup my old strat copy to float a few years back that was ugly. is that the "trick" to the strat trem to keep it in tune? i've heard that ritchie blackmores tech found a way for it to stay perfectly in tune. and when randy rhoads asked EVH how his strat didn't go out of tune he replied sometihng like "can't tell ya that kid, its a trick jeff beck showed me"

[Cancer]

Originally Posted by Dylan7620

no different than other 2-point trems? there must be a reason why so many love the original floyd over others.

Just my .02$. I always gathered that their love of the original Floyd was due to its tuning stability. Once setup, tuned and locked the original Floyds didn't, actually couldn't go out out of tune, there was no place for the string to go. I would imagine that would inspire alot of love from the original users, especially considering every other trem back then would go out after one use.

Personally i wished they'd rere-release them. I'd like to not dea with fine tuners anymore.

[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by psyphre

Personally i wished they'd rere-release them. I'd like to not dea with fine tuners anymore.

The reason the fine tuners came along was that the Floyds without them were a pain in the ass from a performance standpoint. (Basically, Eddie wanted them to have fine tuners since his strings weren't always stretched out as well as they should have been.)

You *can* keep a standard Strat in tune, for the most part, by winding the strings so they act like staggered tuners, using a brass nut and lubing it, and a few other things, like putting a reverse twist on the string as you wind it. (Yes, I had a couple of Strats before I could afford a Floyd. )

As to the "floating' question: Eddie's base plates sit on top of the guitar, so they're in full contact with the top when the trem isn't in use, which is probably why he like the tone better. Technically, all of the Floyds on '80s guitars were "floating" - I just prefer the long-block, top-mount version because of the hand angle and rest point - if mine weren't blocked to be "down only", I could do pull-ups, albeit not as far as guitars with a rout.

[hirah]

here's a pic. after the fine tuning floyd came out, the non fine tuning floyd went on the cheaper striker kramers.

[Dylan7620]

thank you very much mike and hirah. thats the info and pic i was looking for. and thanks to the others for chiming in. being so young i never quite grasped the concept of how much of an influence eddie really made to guitar. not only from a playing standpoint but even how our guitars and parts were developed and made.

[noodles]

Here is a great site with a lot of info on the evolution of the Floyd Rose.

If you think the original is rare, then you need to check out the Les Paul version that could install on a guitar without modification:



I've actually played one of these. It was the only one I have ever seen.

[metalfiend666]

That's cool, but you've still got to modify the guitar to fit the locknut.

[noodles]

Originally Posted by metalfiend666

That's cool, but you've still got to modify the guitar to fit the locknut.

True, but the one I played had locking tuners and a graphite nut, making it easy to return to stock.

[darren]

The Floyd is different from other two-point fulcrum bridges in that it's the only one designed to lock the strings at the bridge saddles. That plus the locking nut are the basis of the Floyd Rose patents. Anyone who wanted to make a "double locking" bridge had to pay up.

It's amazing how little information there is out there on Brad Gillis' and Jeff Watson's guitars, considering how huge Night Ranger were in the '80s. Gillis was the first player i'd seen to chisel out behind the bridge to give him much more pull-up range.

This back routing is not the only way to get a bridge to "float"... it can also be done by shimming some angle into a bolt-on neck and raising the bridge above the body. Like Eaeolian, i don't like the feel of having a bridge so close to the face of the guitar, so i haven't cared much for the playing comfort of guitars with recessed bridges (the armrest on the EBMM JP mitigates this somewhat).

The guitar Ibanez built for Vinnie Moore was an Edge (called the Edge II) without locking tuners. I believe it also did not lock at the bridge. Prototypes of this guitar had what looked like an Original Floyd Rose without the fine tuners. The guitar was equipped with Gotoh Magnum Lock tuners. Pretty cutting-edge for the time, actually. Vinnie now plays EBMM.

http://www.ibanezregister.com/Gallery/vm/gal-vm1wh.htm
http://www.ibanezregister.com/Gallery/vm/gal-vm1sh.htm

Fender does actually still have a bridge of that design. It even appeared on a few production instruments, though i'm not sure it's still in production. I believe it's called the Fender Deluxe Locking 2-Point Tremolo, and it usually appears on guitars with locking tuners and sometimes a roller nut.

I'd post a link, but Fender's site appears to be down at the moment.

[Dylan7620]

wow, good stuff guys. thanks for the site dave. looks like all the info i could ever want.

[Sometimes7]

I was digging through some old guitar mags the other month and in an EVH cover issue of one of them (can't recall which) there was a picture of him with his red and white & black original guitar but the Floyd was different. It had fine tuners but it didn't look like the OFR we all know. They were in a different place, not sitting back as far as they do now. I thought when I looked at it that it must be a prototype for the fine tuner design.

[darren]

Here we go:

http://fender.com/products/search.php?partno=1996510100



I really like how clean and minimal the design is, but i wonder where and how the intonation adjustment is done.

[metalfiend666]

Interesting. I'd like to know that too, I can't see anything obvious to allow intonation and I doubt they'd put it on the bottom of the bridge.

[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by Sometimes7

I was digging through some old guitar mags the other month and in an EVH cover issue of one of them (can't recall which) there was a picture of him with his red and white & black original guitar but the Floyd was different. It had fine tuners but it didn't look like the OFR we all know. They were in a different place, not sitting back as far as they do now. I thought when I looked at it that it must be a prototype for the fine tuner design.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it is indeed one of the prototypes.

[Toshiro]

Originally Posted by metalfiend666

Interesting. I'd like to know that too, I can't see anything obvious to allow intonation and I doubt they'd put it on the bottom of the bridge.

That's exactly where it is.

[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by metalfiend666

Interesting. I'd like to know that too, I can't see anything obvious to allow intonation and I doubt they'd put it on the bottom of the bridge.

They're under the bridge plate. No, I don't know what they were thinking, either.

[metalfiend666]

Yeah, 'cos it's easily accessible there

[jacksonplayer]

Originally Posted by darren

The Floyd is different from other two-point fulcrum bridges in that it's the only one designed to lock the strings at the bridge saddles. That plus the locking nut are the basis of the Floyd Rose patents. Anyone who wanted to make a "double locking" bridge had to pay up.

That's a good point. I forgot about that when I compared it to the Wilkinson and modern Fender trems.

Still, I do believe that the OFR was the first two-point trem, wasn't it? Fender certainly had nothing like it before then.