[777]

anyone know how this goes like a dual recto 100 watt would be as loud as a how many watt solid state?

i want to know what a randall g3 150/300 head would equal to in loudness to a tube amp

[Popsyche]

Originally Posted by 777

anyone know how this goes like a dual recto 100 watt would be as loud as a how many watt solid state?
i want to know what a randall g3 150/300 head would equal to in loudness to a tube amp

Wattage is wattage. If one amp is 100watts, it is putting out the same power as another amp that is 100watts, if they are rated at the same THD levels. Speaker cabinet efficiency is much or important as to how loud an amp will be.

[Toshiro]

It's not a volume problem, it's a headroom problem. A tube amp can be turned up past the point where the powerstage starts to distort, and still sound good/musical(some amps sound *better*). A solid state amp turned up to the point where the power stage distorts sounds like shit. You want a solid state amp that gets the volume of a pegged tube amp before it hits that distortion point.

300 watts is about that point where you can hang with a 100 watt tube amp with a SS one, IMO.

[Popsyche]

Originally Posted by Toshiro

It's not a volume problem, it's a headroom problem. A tube amp can be turned up past the point where the powerstage starts to distort, and still sound good/musical(some amps sound *better*). A solid state amp turned up to the point where the power stage distorts sounds like shit. You want a solid state amp that gets the volume of a pegged tube amp before it hits that distortion point.
300 watts is about that point where you can hang with a 100 watt tube amp with a SS one, IMO.

The modern SS amps I see are made to distort in a more pleasant manner than the oldies. If you overdrive an amplifier not designed for guitar duty, you are 100% correct, but SS guitar amps will have a modified harmonic structure to emulate tube distortion better.

[777]

Originally Posted by Toshiro

It's not a volume problem, it's a headroom problem. A tube amp can be turned up past the point where the powerstage starts to distort, and still sound good/musical(some amps sound *better*). A solid state amp turned up to the point where the power stage distorts sounds like shit. You want a solid state amp that gets the volume of a pegged tube amp before it hits that distortion point.
300 watts is about that point where you can hang with a 100 watt tube amp with a SS one, IMO.

so what your saying is ican put a 300 watt ss amp as loud as a 100 watt tube amp and it will still sound good?

it will be running through a randall XL cab which can handle 280 watts but its a 300watt head???

[metalfiend666]

Ok, this is about clipping not outright power. Tube produced soundwaves are, well, wavey and curved. SS soundwaves are digital and tend to clip earlier producing a square wave. This lacks volume and sounds like shit. Does that make sense?

Technically a 100W SS is as loud as a 100W tube amp, but at the higher ends of the volume range clipping becomes an issue, ergo the tube amp appears to be louder.

As long as you don't max out your volume (which I doubt you ever will) you should be fine running that amp into the 280w cab.

[Toshiro]

Originally Posted by Popsyche

The modern SS amps I see are made to distort in a more pleasant manner than the oldies. If you overdrive an amplifier not designed for guitar duty, you are 100% correct, but SS guitar amps will have a modified harmonic structure to emulate tube distortion better.

All the 100 watt newer SS amps I've played through sounded like garbage once the power stage started to distort. Most of these manufacturers are still using the same ICs as other SS amp makers. The power stage of a Flextone II, for instance, was the same as a car stereo. The 300 watt Tech21 I used to own could hold it's own against a tube amp.

Also, the ohm of the cab makes more of an impact with SS gear. Most amps rated at 300 watts are @ 4ohm (200watts @8ohm, 100@16ohm).

(Although, tube amp makers seem to want to exaggerate this, by putting 'jumps' in their master volume controls.)

[777]

im confused as hell right now the amp sounded amazing in the shop but im being told its shit, i know your all tube amp buffs but i really cant afford a tube amp this is going to be my first head and 4x12 i want a new amp because im usuing a fender 30 watter right now and want more tone, why a 1/2 stack you might ask? honestly i have no idea im not playing any gigs and am not i a band but if i do get in a band i want to be able to have an amp that can g loud and not turn to shit on me as happend with my 30 watter past 2 and 1/2

EDIT: also this amp is a tube hybrid i dont know if that makes any diff its only 1 tube

[Toshiro]

Originally Posted by 777

im confused as hell right now the amp sounded amazing in the shop but im being told its shit, i know your all tube amp buffs but i really cant afford a tube amp this is going to be my first head and 4x12 i want a new amp because im usuing a fender 30 watter right now and want more tone, why a 1/2 stack you might ask? honestly i have no idea im not playing any gigs and am not i a band but if i do get in a band i want to be able to have an amp that can g loud and not turn to shit on me as happend with my 30 watter past 2 and 1/2
EDIT: also this amp is a tube hybrid i dont know if that makes any diff its only 1 tube

I wouldn't worry about it then, you're not going to get an amp up to power-section distortion practicing/jamming out by yourself. Unless you hate your ear drums. You made it sound in the first post like you needed the volume of a 100 watt Mesa Dual Recto.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by 777

it will be running through a randall XL cab which can handle 280 watts but its a 300watt head???

That's a bigger issue. If you hit a cabinet rated for 280 watts with 300 watts of power, you run the risk of blowing speakers when the amp is running flat-out. At lower practice volumes, you'll be fine, but when the amp is running hard, you could have issues. A general rule of thumb for a high-powered half stack is you want at least 100 watts to spare on your cab - you should look into something 400+ watts.

Do you NEED a half-stack? Not really, my Nomad 2x12 is more than loud enough for any gig I've ever played. I'd say if you're a bedroom guitarist right now and you want a toneful, powerful package, a 30-watt tube combo might not be a bad idea. It'll sound good at moderate volumes, great at most "gigging" levels, and is loud enough to hang with a drummer even if it doesn't look quite as metal as a wall of Marshalls.

What kind of music do you play? Fender makes some great low wattage tube amps, and the Hot Rod Deluxe might be worth a look. Not enough gain for metal on its own, but surprisingly (or not, considering Mesas started as basically Fenders modified for cascading gain stages), if you put a high-gain "metal" distortion pedal in front of one, you get some serious chunk. And, if you're not playing metal, the distortion channel (with maybe a DS-1 for a little added compression) will put you in surprisingly authentic 'modern Vai' territory, which going by your moniker is good news...

[777]

Originally Posted by Drew

That's a bigger issue. If you hit a cabinet rated for 280 watts with 300 watts of power, you run the risk of blowing speakers when the amp is running flat-out...

that scares me think id be better going for the 150?

ok

STYLE:metal/shred(main style),play vai/satch etc riffs (main influences)
GUITAR:RG1527 2 emg 707s going in soon
USED FOR: practice, with a loud drummer, guitar jam sessions, possible future gigs for small places id assume

150watts solid enough for that with a 280watt XL 4x12 (vintage 30's) cab?

if in the future i get a 100/150watt !!TUBE!! head will the 280watt cab i used for a solid state be able to handle or are there special cabs for tube amps???

[Toshiro]

That cab will be fine when you get a tube amp down the road. As I was trying to explain, it's not about wattage, it's about headroom/clipping.

In your situation, I'd go for the 150 if you have to have the V30s. The 300watt head could blow those out, especially if you do push it hard(dunno how you would possibly do this without hearing damage, IMO. The loudest I ever had my Tech21 was like 7, and that was peeling the paint off the walls).

[Elysian]

Originally Posted by Toshiro

It's not a volume problem, it's a headroom problem. A tube amp can be turned up past the point where the powerstage starts to distort, and still sound good/musical(some amps sound *better*). A solid state amp turned up to the point where the power stage distorts sounds like shit. You want a solid state amp that gets the volume of a pegged tube amp before it hits that distortion point.
300 watts is about that point where you can hang with a 100 watt tube amp with a SS one, IMO.

i hang with a 100w tube head no sweat with my 135w solid state power amp(@8ohms, if i were at 4 i'd be at 200w, and at 2 i'd be at 300...), but my amp doesn't tend to break up, even up at max volume... course, i think its just my model of power amp lol

Originally Posted by 777

im confused as hell right now the amp sounded amazing in the shop but im being told its shit, i know your all tube amp buffs but i really cant afford a tube amp this is going to be my first head and 4x12 i want a new amp because im usuing a fender 30 watter right now and want more tone, why a 1/2 stack you might ask? honestly i have no idea im not playing any gigs and am not i a band but if i do get in a band i want to be able to have an amp that can g loud and not turn to shit on me as happend with my 30 watter past 2 and 1/2
EDIT: also this amp is a tube hybrid i dont know if that makes any diff its only 1 tube

why not buy a blue voodoo? great tube amp, not a huge cost, i got my blue voodoo head back in the day for 450 shipped, retube it with jj's and your set...

[Ibycan7]

well, if you play with a loud drummer, 150W may not cut it either. basically you are going to have to crank that sucker up and you are going to run into the clipping that we are trying to avoid on SS amps. I have seen a couple of band where they have a SS amp 100W or so and they mike it thru their PA. they have a nice PA for the singer and it sounds great. which I had to do a lot myself. most clubs were I used to play they had PA so I didn't have a problem miking my amp and I didn't have the clipping problem. but bands back in the day didn't have PA and the Amp had to carry the load and be cranked up to be heard. if you are just beginning to get your gear together. you will be happier in the long run with a tube amp. but you can make it work with a SS if you have to. and still sound decent.

[Elysian]

i've only played 1 gig where i didn't mic through a PA, and that gig we didn't run any louder than we run practice, and we definately have a loud drummer lol... i had no problem cutting through, i even had to turn down a little bit when the other guitarist would go for a solo cause he didn't have a lead boost, good thing i had a floorboard...

[Ibycan7]

Elysian, what is this wonderful amp you are talking about?

[Elysian]

just an old Fender M-300 monitoring power amp.

[D-EJ915]

How loud an amp is depends on its output voltage. Wattage is nice but it's the voltage which actually makes the difference. You can have a low voltage 100 Watt amp which will have low headroom and a high voltage 100 Watt amp that will have high headroom. Usually tube guitar amps run higher voltages and thus they're 'louder' if the amps can output at the same voltage they'll be exactly the same.
This is why the "1W @1 Meter" sensitivity test sucks because it can vary from amp to amp but the "2.83V @1 meter" test will produce the same result.

[Ibycan7]

Originally Posted by Elysian

just an old Fender M-300 monitoring power amp.

you mean a PA power amp type. hell that's a whole different story man...those power amp are designed a little different in my experience and allow for a better sound, poweramp sections in a SS amp are not like that. that why a lot of people like to use modeling amp with a power amp and a cab or to the PA directly. what are you using for pre-amp?

[Elysian]

Originally Posted by Ibycan7

you mean a PA power amp type. hell that's a whole different story man...those power amp are designed a little different in my experience and allow for a better sound, poweramp sections in a SS amp are not like that. that why a lot of people like to use modeling amp with a power amp and a cab or to the PA directly. what are you using for pre-amp?

thats what i'm doing, running my vamp pro, although i'm looking to get a digitech 2101 dual s-disc, i think itd suit what i'm going for much better, i don't think i'd change my power amp if i got one though

[noodles]

Originally Posted by Drew

What kind of music do you play? Fender makes some great low wattage tube amps, and the Hot Rod Deluxe might be worth a look. Not enough gain for metal on its own, but surprisingly (or not, considering Mesas started as basically Fenders modified for cascading gain stages), if you put a high-gain "metal" distortion pedal in front of one, you get some serious chunk. And, if you're not playing metal, the distortion channel (with maybe a DS-1 for a little added compression) will put you in surprisingly authentic 'modern Vai' territory, which going by your moniker is good news...

Absolutely do not buy this amp for metal. It completely muds out when you put a distortion pedal in front of it. The power stage just isn't designed to handle high gain. For blues/rock stuff? Amazing with a tube screamer in front. I know, because that was my rig when I played in a blues/rock band.

Imagine Noodles playing a Strat into a Fender amp.

[The Dark Wolf]

Originally Posted by noodles

Imagine Noodles playing a Strat into a Fender amp.

Hence why the metal Gods transformed you into a balded gnome.


At least now you can administer some serious metal in your new guise. Everyone knows balded gnomes come from the depths of the earth, and are seriously fucking metal!

[noodles]

Originally Posted by The Dark Wolf

Hence why the metal Gods transformed you into a balded gnome.

I wasn't transformed. I was sent back to the earth's core to be reforged.

[The Dark Wolf]

Originally Posted by noodles

I wasn't transformed. I was sent back to the earth's core to be reforged.

Noodles before he was re-forged.





All hail the metal God's wisdom, then. Truly, they are wise.


Any rate, on topic. I've played through a Hot Rod Deluxe, a Deluxe Reverb, and a Twin. The Twin holds up eh... ok, with a good pedal, but the Deluxe Reverb and the HRD = Like you said, Dave. Mud. Like, the BLAAAAAT, farty kind, too. Not good.

[noodles]

The scary thing is my Strat was that color. It had a rosewood board and tortoise shell pickguard, though. Come to think of it, I had the 4x12 DeVille (first gen tweed with blue alnico speakers, not 2nd gen tolex with crap speakers), not the Deluxe. Great amp for what it was, but certainly not for metal.