[Metalus]

How would u guys rate the Digidesign Eleven Rack vs the Axe-Fx? Is it a fair comparison?

My apologies for hijacking the thread lol

[s7eve]

Originally Posted by cradleofflames

That isn't conclusive. Given the track record digital modeling has received from budget processors consider the skepticism it must receive from the business.



Beg to differ.

I would bet the difference in those recordings is entirely monitoring and expertise. Given equal monitoring and expertise I believe that equal if not superior results could be achieved with the Axe faster. (for example: given the case that the sound one needs isn't achievable from a real amp without extensive eq-ing) At the moment one has to get the sound right the first time, something that shifts the emphasis on recording from the creative to the technical. When and if the Axe is released as a plug-in it will allow one to get the performances right and adjust the sound as necessary later without needing to re-amp, re-record, or spend forever eq-ing like one would now. In short it would all the emphasis to return to the creative rather than the technical it has become.

As things are it would be simple enough to record di in addition to the models and send it back to the Axe over digital i/o if a different sound or additional layers is needed.

In the hands of someone with equal monitoring capabilies, expertise, and budget superior results could be achieved from either. The problem is most people don't have a good sounding room to play loud in or the budget for the necessary mic's, preamp's, guitars, and amps to have a chance of getting a superior sound from them.

In short: I believe that what you use to record your product will not correlate to it's quality rather one's expertise will.

Look at the criticism digital recording received when it was young, for a long time people pointed out that older analogue recording sounds superior to the same material in the new digital format, it turned out that the main reason for the comparatively poor digital recording was production was much lower quality than the originals due to the rush to re-release old content in the new format, these days it seems the difference comes down to preference of the individual in some cases CD's sound better than the same material in an analogue format again due to production and it now seems that HD digital audio is a superior format to the analogue formats we used.

Originally Posted by Harry

I don't see how that argument makes sense.
These are all guys at the cutting edge of technology, many of them having moved to plug ins from outboard gear. Andy Sneap is always on the lookout for new things to experiment with so that his mixes sound different from the next, he isn't simply an "old dog" too burnt out to "learn new tricks".
I think it's just a case that they like what they hear.
Hell there are even guys my age that are always pushing for the way forward and are excited to see where the future of audio engineering is going that still stand by real amps until they feel that impulse technology has improved enough to justify using real amps.
Again, I say this as someone who DOES currently use modeling

As I said earlier it's early days for these new better modelers and they just keep getting better, the AFX has received a lot of development in a very short time, give it time and the use of these by the industry will be more and more widespread. FWIW Eleven has already been used by the industry for a little while now, it's only a matter of time before everyone looks at the other options available.

[TomAwesome]

Originally Posted by s7eve

I really don't know much at all about the AFX and to be honest when guys say that it is designed to sound like a mic'd cab, that's a turn off to me. I want a modeler that when run direct will repeat the sound that I would hear coming from the cab if I was playing a real rig and if I am trying to model a tube rig I want to be able to connect directly to any decent amplified speaker and have it sound and respond like a tube rig. The reason we used mics is because there was no other way to capture the sound of a rig, I think ideally you don't want to model the effects of a mic, ideally you want to be able to reproduce the sound that is or would be coming from the cab.

I wouldn't say that it's "designed" to specifically sound like a miced rig. The amp sims model the preamp and power amp, but nothing else. These simulations aren't in any way made to favor a miced sound. The reason it sounds like a miced rig when it's going direct into the PA or a FRFR system is that the cabinet emulations are impulses, which are real recordings from real cabs. Like you said, there's no other way to capture the sound of a rig, so anything using impulses will inherently have the sound of a microphone. The stock cabs actually let you turn the mic "off", but I'm not really sure how this works. If you could get an impulse recorded with a really flat reference mic in a way that's designed to capture the "in room" sound, you could probably get around that somewhat.

[cradleofflames]

Using the Axe direct is the same sound as one would receive using IEMs with the added advantage of it being completely consistent.

The Axe works superior as a preamp as well even if in that capacity it's not being used to it's full capabilities.

Running it direct even if one turns the mic sim off in the Axe it won't sound like an amp in the room because pa cabs project much more evenly without the phase issues of a guitar cab which is part of what we've all come to expect. I haven't tested it personally but supposedly the Axe with the mic and cab models disabled using a guitar cab will sound like an amp in the room. Using a pa power amp would still allow one to use the power amp sims but running a tube poweramp is equally if not more common.

It irritates me how guitar cabs have phase issues, are so directional and since they don't project evenly a few inches of movement sounds totally different. For example walk across in front of two side by side full stacks. Once you get off of straight on of either of the cabinet the sound drastically changes. Not to mention when standing at the area in the between the two stacks the phase cancellation is so extreme that the sound almost drops out entirely.

Before I became re-interested in metal as of recently I was using two non-master volume amps, both mic'd w/d/w. Since I was using a fair deal of fuzz pedals for leads I needed a close back cab with my cleans which sacrificed some of the chime-ness I would have had if I'd used an open back cab. The Axe is accurate enough to allow me to not have to sacrifice anything but rig size, stage volume, and a lot of operational hassle.

Here's an example of the Axe - VHT 2/50/2 - Bogner 4x12 from a camera mic

[s7eve]

Originally Posted by Metalus

How would u guys rate the Digidesign Eleven Rack vs the Axe-Fx? Is it a fair comparison?

My apologies for hijacking the thread lol

Very few of us have owned either let alone both. It is a fair comparison both have their strengths and weaknesses, I can't comment except to say the AFX has a lot more models and tweakability packed into it and the Eleven rack has some features the AFX does not that make it very interesting. One guy who owns an AFX, Eleven rack and a GSP1101 posted his opinion recently and to sum it up his opinion is that the Eleven blows the competition away, others have had the opposite reaction. He posted that the input of the Eleven rack is what really set it apart, I believe that his impression was based on the models he used on the Eleven presented a load that worked better with his guitar than the load presented by the input of the GSP1101 and AFX. If I am correct then it stands to reason that any modeler could sound superior if you use something like a Tonebone Dragster in front of it and the load is constantly the optimum for the guitar you are using. The advantage of the Eleven rack input over any other modeler is that the unit will present your guitar with the same load the real thing would have so theoretically it will respond the same as if you were using the real thing.

[cradleofflames]

The Eleven also models the noise that the amps its modeling has. I've seen the manual for the Eleven and it isn't nearly as deep as the Axe.

Everything you put between your guitar and your amp changes the impedance. If one is inclined to plug straight in the impedance is an issue but if one uses any pedals, a buffer, active pickups, or a wireless it's irrelevant.

In theory a problem with using something like the Dragster is that each pickup in your guitar has a different output impedance.

[s7eve]

Originally Posted by TomAwesome

I wouldn't say that it's "designed" to specifically sound like a miced rig. [snip]

Originally Posted by cradleofflames

Using the Axe direct ...[snip]

So if you turned off the cabs and ran it through a SS poweramp and a cab would you guys say that it is as good as playing through a full tube rig? From what I have read opinions seem to be divided on the answer to this question. If the answer to this question is yes it justifies my recommendation for an AxeFX over any Tube Head.

[s7eve]

Originally Posted by cradleofflames

The Eleven also models the noise that the amps its modeling has. I've seen the manual for the Eleven and it isn't nearly as deep as the Axe.

When I owned the E530 I recreated my rhythm tone on the GSP1101, it also reproduced the noise and feedback exactly as I heard it on the E530. Incidentally a slightly tweaked version of that preset is now one of the most popular presets on the GSP1101 forum among the guys who have tried it.

Everything you put between your guitar and your amp changes the impedance. If one is inclined to plug straight in the impedance is an issue but if one uses any pedals, a buffer, active pickups, or a wireless it's irrelevant.

Exactly.

In theory a problem with using something like the Dragster is that each pickup in your guitar has a different output impedance.

I hadn't thought of that but you would think it may still be better than the load presented by some units and result in more guitars working well with more equipment.

[cradleofflames]

It comes down to how accurately you wish to recreate a particular response. In theory given the tweak-ability of the Axe a consistent input impedance is a solid baseline for recreating the response that varying input impedance create artificially later on. For me it comes down to this quote from an Axe-FX user:

“I am able to create the exact guitar sound and touch dynamics I want from the ground up” - Jeff Loomis

The lower the input impedance the less loading itself will effect the sound of the amp allowing the true character of each guitar to more accurately shine through. Lower impedance makes each individual piece of gear to degrade less as a result of cables, connection types, and the quality of other pieces within the system. I used to use an ADA MP-1 but rather I ran it after any boss pedal or plugged straight in it sounded totally different. The non-masters I was using more recently were particularly impedance sensitive, to the point that I couldn't run anything digital or buffered in front of them or I would totally lose the amps ability to clean up.

My experience with the Axe is of it sounding just like an amp and feeling just like an amp perhaps not the particular one it sounded like. At the moment I am playing one periodically but I'm still trying to raise enough money to get my own. I'll know better then.

[TomAwesome]

Originally Posted by s7eve

So if you turned off the cabs and ran it through a SS poweramp and a cab would you guys say that it is as good as playing through a full tube rig? From what I have read opinions seem to be divided on the answer to this question. If the answer to this question is yes it justifies my recommendation for an AxeFX over any Tube Head.

That's how I have mine set up, and it definitely sounds and feels like I'm playing through an amp and cab with no mics involved. I can't say whether or not it's "as good" since I don't actually own any of the amps it emulates to compare it to. Then again, my main "amp" right now is a Diezel VH4 I tweaked the shit out of to make it sound like a thick and growly Marshall from hell. In any case, a lot of the time I feel like I could turn around and expect to see an expensive amp head on top of my cab blasting at me.