[Skeletor]

I'm saving up at the moment for a custom ERG. I'm a ways off, but I need to figure out all the specifics, and any advice from people who already have one would be fantastic.

I'm already using a 7-string, and I'm thinking of going 9 strings. But I want to use a Maj3 tuning, something like Ab, C, E (low E on a 6-string), Ab, C, E, Ab, C, E (high e on a 6-string). What kind of gauges would be effective? I'm guessing I'd have to buy each string individually because I'm not tuning to fourths.

I also want fanned frets. It's probably very difficult to play a 9-string with parallel frets. What kind of multi-scale do you think is reasonable? I'm thinking of going with a longer neck so I don't have to use gigantic strings.

Is it possible to get a FR tremolo on a 9-string guitar? Do they make bridges for this?

[technomancer]

Nope, there is no nine string Floyd. There is however a nine string Kahler that would work nicely

As for string gauges, I have no idea.

[ElRay]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

But I want to use a Maj3 tuning, something like Ab, C, E (low E on a 6-string), Ab, C, E, Ab, C, E (high e on a 6-string).

I've been hit by that "I'm not the only one" feeling. There's been a few threads about Major 3rds tunings. This seems to be the best way to go. Especially if you want to play anything "Classical" with E, A or D drones -- It would take just a few single string capos to get what you need.

What kind of gauges would be effective? I'm guessing I'd have to buy each string individually because I'm not tuning to fourths.

I haven't shopped for 9-string strings, but I'd be surprised if you could buy a standard set or two and be close enough and cheaper than single strings. For figuring out tensions, there's the StringTensionApplet -- The UI bites, but it's a useful tool.

Ray

[Given To Fly]

I think using a major thrid tuning would probably not be such a good idea. The reason is because 3rds tend to not be very "in-tune" on the guitar. It may not be noticable between just two strings, but chances are if you are able to to get those two strings in tune, then other strings will not be as in tune with them. So for example, say the 1st and 2nd strings are a major third apart and in tune, then the 8th and 2nd probably wouldn't be very accurate. I may be wrong on this but I know with classical guitar it is always hard to have everything in tune all over the fretboard.

[Ishan]

They are not in tune because on a tempered intrument you have to favor something, like in most european music we favor having the fifth in tune. So yes the major 3rd are a little out of tune but if you favor them they wont be.

[Durero]

Originally Posted by Given To Fly

I think using a major thrid tuning would probably not be such a good idea. The reason is because 3rds tend to not be very "in-tune" on the guitar. It may not be noticable between just two strings, but chances are if you are able to to get those two strings in tune, then other strings will not be as in tune with them. So for example, say the 1st and 2nd strings are a major third apart and in tune, then the 8th and 2nd probably wouldn't be very accurate. I may be wrong on this but I know with classical guitar it is always hard to have everything in tune all over the fretboard.

This problem can be considered an intonation issue, or an equal temperament issue, or both, but either way it has nothing to do with the tuning scheme at all.

Classical guitars tend to have very poor intonation, especially on the solid nylon strings, and the thickest solid nylon string (G) is extremely far off.

There is a classical builder who has found a solution to this problem: http://www.byersguitars.com/research/research.html

Originally Posted by Ishan

They are not in tune because on a tempered intrument you have to favor something, like in most european music we favor having the fifth in tune. So yes the major 3rd are a little out of tune but if you favor them they wont be.

There's an old thread all about the temperament issue:
Just Intonation, Equal Temperament, and Multiphonics

[ElRay]

There are already a number of Jazz player that play a "M3" guitar -- 7-string tuned to Major 3rds. So the problems can't be bad enough or impossible to mitigate to a reasonable level. DR has raised the same concern.

Originally Posted by Durero

This problem can be considered an intonation issue, or an equal temperament issue, or both, but either way it has nothing to do with the tuning scheme at all.

Right. One tuning scheme (what each string is tuned to) might be more prone to intonation issues over another. DR says his no-intonation changes possible acoustic tuned to mostly 5ths (search for HTHAIGTPANIMT) "just sings".

The tuning method (how you go about tuning each string to the desired pitch) would definitely attenuate (as in a Buzz Fenten system for a standard-tuned 6-string) or exacerbate (as in some of the tuning methodologies suggested around the net) the temperament/intonation issues. Tuning each string to the lower string fretted at the 4th fret, might maximize the problem, while tuning each string to the absolute pitch might reduce the overall out-of-tune-ness. I doubt that the 5ths will be so sharp that a Maj 3rd tuning will re-introduce the "wolf fifths" that equal temperament was designed to eliminate.

I haven't thought-out what the different harmonics would be, but that might present the best way to shift the errors around to be minimally noticeable. Some kind of a Maj 3rd modified Buzz-Fenten system.

At this time, I can't hear the out-of-tune-ness. In time, I hope to be able to. Maybe when I can the imperfections will bug me. Maybe by then I'll be playing a custom built 19-tone Lucy-tuned guitar.

Classical guitars tend to have very poor intonation, especially on the solid nylon strings, and the thickest solid nylon string (G) is extremely far off.

That's the line that I'm thinking along. Electrics have better intonation options (I'm coming from a steel string acoustic). Plus, when I get to the point that the out-of-tune-ness bugs me, I'll look at some kind of a compensated nut. When that no longer works, I'll go fretless.

Ray

[Durero]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

I'm saving up at the moment for a custom ERG. I'm a ways off, but I need to figure out all the specifics, and any advice from people who already have one would be fantastic.

I'm already using a 7-string, and I'm thinking of going 9 strings. But I want to use a Maj3 tuning, something like Ab, C, E (low E on a 6-string), Ab, C, E, Ab, C, E (high e on a 6-string). What kind of gauges would be effective? I'm guessing I'd have to buy each string individually because I'm not tuning to fourths.

I also want fanned frets. It's probably very difficult to play a 9-string with parallel frets. What kind of multi-scale do you think is reasonable? I'm thinking of going with a longer neck so I don't have to use gigantic strings.

Is it possible to get a FR tremolo on a 9-string guitar? Do they make bridges for this?

My multi-scale 7-string is tuned in 4ths starting from the same low Ab1 you're talking about and going up to D4 just below the high E4 of standard tuning.

It's got a 36" scale for the lowest string which is the equivalent of taking your low E string on a 25.5" scale and tuning down to D and then extending the neck by 6 frets. This means that whatever string gage I like for a Drop-D tuning on the 6th string of a 25.5" scale is exactly what I use to reach the low Ab on my 36" scale, so very thin indeed.

Check out these two web apps for multi-scale designs:
http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/nonparallel.php
http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/origin...s/dinfterF.php


I'd very highly recommend the Kahler 9-string vibratos, the cam design is so much better than a fulcrum (Floyd) in my opinion. The feel is so smooth and easy I'd get the Kahler even if a 9-string FR was available.

[Durero]

Originally Posted by ElRay

There are already a number of Jazz player that play a "M3" guitar -- 7-string tuned to Major 3rds. So the problems can't be bad enough or impossible to mitigate to a reasonable level. DR has raised the same concern.
Right. The tuning scheme might attenuate (as in Buzz Fenten system) or exacerbate the problem (as in some of the tuning methodologies suggested around the net). At this time, I can't hear the out-of-tune-ness. In time, I hope to be able to.

Also, I think the way you tune the guitar would also have an affect. Tuning each string to the lower string fretted at the 4th fret, might maximize the problem, while tuning each string to the absolute pitch might reduce the overall out-of-tune-ness. I haven't thought-out what the different harmonics would be, but that might present the best way to shift the errors around to be minimally noticeable. Some kind of a Maj 3rd modified Buzz-Fenten system.That's the line that I'm thinking along. Electrics have better intonation options (I'm coming from a steel string acoustic). Plus, when I get to the point that the out-of-tune-ness bugs me, I'll look at some kind of a compensated nut. When that no longer works, I'll go fretless.

Ray

Good points Ray.
In that post I was definitely assuming the tuning method would be using an electronic tuner and not tuning the strings to each other. If this method is used then I still say the tuning pattern is irrelevant.

I believe the intonation issue could be solved in a much more flexible way by the use of adjustable saddles at the nut.

Compensated nut designs are a step towards this, but they only work for specific tunings and string gages, whereas individual nut saddles with a small amount of adjustability could be used for any tuning or gage.

This seems like an obvious idea to me but I haven't seen any guitars which have this

[ElRay]

Originally Posted by Durero

Compensated nut designs are a step towards this, but they only work for specific tunings and string gages, whereas individual nut saddles with a small amount of adjustability could be used for any tuning or gage.

Great idea. Especially on a headless system. I wonder if you could get Wilkinson-style bridge saddles sized for typical nut string-to-string spacing. Or, if you're used to Classical spacing, then you could just use Wilkinson-style saddles.

Might be tough with "normal" sized fingers on a 9-string. The cardboard mock-ups I've done so far lead me to believe that 5/16" (~8mm) string-to-string is about as far as I can go at the nut with a 9-string.

Ray