[Xplora]

Hey guys, I'm new. Lurked a bit in the past, I find the people here to really know their stuff. A unique community when it comes to expanded ideas on guitar.

I'm fishing for some ideas and toying with the idea of having an 8 string built. I currently use a 2001 Ibanez 7421 which I've just been amazed with for the price for years now. (Cost me about 300 US brand new). Better than the Universes on all counts, but moving along...

Here is what I was thinking...

Metal styled body, most likely a V based closely on the BC Rich Jr V.
8 strings, tuned to major thirds
Ab - a bit lower than Korn's low A
C
E - normal low E on a guitar
Ab
C
E
Ab
C

So the top C is a "baritone" tuned string, more or less.

Probably a 27" scale. Small hands. LOL
Mahogany wings with an Ebony top
Mahogany/Maple or Mahogany/Ebony neck with scalloped ebony fretboard.
Stainless steel frets

I want a super tight low end, but with a lot of that wonderful broad mahogany growl. I also want a highly stable neck that is pretty thin (definitely no thicker than 19mm). And not too heavy and very balanced

Now, some points I'm considering...
-I don't know how stable I need the neck to be or if its possible given my specs.
-I don't know how much concern I need for low end tightness with wood choice - Ab doesn't seem very low to me. I've been using Blaze's tuned standard with a drop A for months and its plenty tight with crap basswood and crap dimarzios. I use a 66 with 10-52s right now.
-I need more tension in my treble strings right now! LOL A bigger scale is totally necessary!
-Headstock design is beyond me. Can't steal the Widow headstock, so where from there?
-is an ebony top insane? It would look pretty
-What about body shape? I lurrrve the Explorer obviously, but I don't think it would look any good with an 8 string. V has symmetry in its favour...
-how do you cope with pickups and hardware?
-I was thinking that a peizo bridge might be possible as well, for acoustic cleans although the Vamp's clean acoustic emulations are VERY nice...
-Chambered wings? And what about with an ebony top?
Lastly, putting 28 frets on it seems like a good idea (to get that final high E). Do "middle position" neck pickup sounds work OK?

I'm open to suggestions. Obviously I'm really pushing the limits of patience but this is a project that could see reality all too soon. Too many woodworkers in the family since I married

[xwmucradiox]

Im waiting on a Blackmachine B2 which will have an oiled ebony top. You will have two issues: Finding a large wide piece of ebony to bookmatch will be difficult and therefore expensive. I have seen them on Benavente basses ($5000) and Blackmachine guitars ($3300). You will also need to keep the top very thin (1/8") to prevent extreme brightness and weight. The benefit is that you can get away with a nice oil finish but a clear gloss finish will probably take away from the beauty and just look like a streaky black stain.

[Xplora]

Had a look at the Blackmachine site... its probably not a bad template to work from. I didn't want a thick ebony top, just something for the colour. I'd want guitar satin gloss finished though. Too much risk for the weather and my sweat is not good for instruments. The rust around my Ibanez's bridge is scary. Plus I'm not very attentive to things like oiling. If the ibanez rust was bad, our oiled chopping board would make you cry...

[Durero]

Glancing at your specs, I'd definitely make it a 9-string. Your tuning scheme is perfect for that - just add your high E and you've got 3 sets of major 3rds spanning 3 octaves. I'd very much recommend using a multi-scale (fanned-fret) design - you could keep a 27" scale for the low Ab and use a regular 25.5" for the high E. This is a very subtle fan, and I'd bet that you'd find it more comfortable than straight frets, especially if you've got smaller hands.

I've got a 9-string 28.5" Ergo guitar and the neck is extremely comfortable. I always tune it strictly in 4ths, but between you & ElRay talking about major 3rds I think I'll give that tuning a try.

Good luck with your project, and keep us informed.

[Xplora]

OK I'm a real newb when it comes to things like fanned frets, not to mention the sheer intensity of 9 strings. I feel that if I was that needy for full string to octave octave coverage, I would just stay with a 6 and let the bass do some work (I don't use the wound strings much past the 12th fret). Having 28 frets on the high C accesses all the notes, surely that's enough!

Most of the reason I'm liking the major thirds tuning is basically a motionless octave (a chromatic requires zero position moves), so how does the fanning interfere with that? (or does the term interact make it sound better? hehee). I kind of like the idea of a baritone'd set of treble strings, I LOVE the resonance and richness of a tight string. Eb sounds cool, but E has better tone! And how are you supposed to mute all your strings if your right hand is on the bridge for palm mutes (I'm a Suffocation/Nile type dude, not an Yngwie).

[Durero]

My thinking on making it a 9-string is that it'll get you your high E string back, and also that you'd have this beautiful symmetry in your tuning with three complete sets of three strings in 3rds: (low pitch to high) Ab1 C2 E2, Ab2 C3 E3, Ab3 C4 E4. Personally, if I was designing a guitar around that tuning, I wouldn't be able to resist having a 9th string. It would give you 4 octaves of range in 1 position, with the ease of a non-shifting chromatic scale as you say. In this way, I think I'd find it easier to play than an 8 string version.

I'm a huge fan of fanned-frets (pardon the bad pun ) because of the great clarity of tone and even tension they create, as well as the playing comfort for your fretting hand.

The fanned specs I suggested were to make the high (pitched) E feel normal and very bendable if you like that traditional feel, but a 27" scale for the high E is no problem - it's the same as taking a regular 25.5" scale and tuning your high E up 1 semitone to F - nice & tight indeed

A 25.5" to 27" fan extremely subtle, and I doubt either your fretting or picking hand would notice much difference between that and straight frets - probably just a little more comfortable for both hands. Having the bridge at a slight angle actually makes palm-muting easier and more comfortable than a straight bridge, especially for a large number of strings (7, 8, 9, etc.) And for your fretting hand, having to reach across 8 or 9 strings will ensure that your thumb is behind the neck in the 'classical position', and the fan of the frets matches the way your fingers 'fan' apart when you play which is subtle but more comfortable than straight frets imo.

My 7-string has a much greater degree of 'fanning': 32" to 36" scales. I find it extremely comfortable and will never go back to straight frets on any instrument I design for myself.

[Xplora]

"Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter"

I'm trying to conceive of a 9 string guitar that I would actually be able to play. I presume that you have to squeeze the strings at the nut a bit to make it physically reasonable to play? I feel that I'd be pushed to my absolute limit with 8 strings. I guess I don't feel so attached to my high E, its just not that much of an issue to me. I think the guitar could sit in my palm as an 8 string, whereas my first finger lacks the length to reach a 9th string without some stretching.

I'm looking for the low Ab because I listen to a lot of Nile, and my own music requires the access to the depth that the string offers. High stuff is less relevent IMO, and this guitar would probably accompany a normal E-E with a drop A 7th string as well (diminished chord acoustic passages aren't the same on the different tuning).

I like the fanning idea. How does one start thinking about where to have the perpendicular fret? I've always found a G major scale to be the easiest scale from the 3rd fret, three notes a string, to play... would that impact where my fan should be from? Let's just say that actually playing a fanned fret guitar is not going to be an option in Australia.

I was thinking about the fanning and scale and I think a 27 to 30 inch fan would be the ticket. Using Ernie Ball Regular Slinky (10-13-17-26-36-46) with a 56 low C and 66 Low Ab - I'm thinking in terms of availability more than anything else - I reckon this could be a reasonable enough compromise for deep tunings, skinny but tight strings - I like crunch! - and reasonable scale for playing length.

I was only thinking about the fanning last night that it should make the normal fretting of simple chords (such as a xx3223x) easier, not more difficult, in the lower frets? That your hand just rotates with the fan?

Sorry about the long post, you've gotten me thinking much more about how all this comes together!

[Durero]

Originally Posted by Xplora

"Your ideas intrigue me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter"

Originally Posted by Xplora

I'm trying to conceive of a 9 string guitar that I would actually be able to play. I presume that you have to squeeze the strings at the nut a bit to make it physically reasonable to play? I feel that I'd be pushed to my absolute limit with 8 strings. I guess I don't feel so attached to my high E, its just not that much of an issue to me. I think the guitar could sit in my palm as an 8 string, whereas my first finger lacks the length to reach a 9th string without some stretching.

Certainly an important issue. I've got a 9-string and a 10-string both made by Ergo in California and the total width at both the bridge and nut is wider on the 9 than it is on the 10. So the 10 has a very tight string spacing and the 9 feels much more roomy. I'm a classical guitar guy so I'm very used to strictly having my fretting-hand thumb centered in the back of the neck, so I find reaching over to the 9th or 10th string to be no problem at all on either instrument. But I hear your concern - when I was designing my 7-string fanned-fret prototype I made a simple mockup of the neck using a thin piece of wood with the frets & strings drawn on with a pencil. It really allowed me to try fingering scales & chords before committing to the real thing - and the results felt exactly as I imagined they would from the mockup. Even a piece of cardboard would do the trick - I'd recommend trying it.

Originally Posted by Xplora

I'm looking for the low Ab because I listen to a lot of Nile, and my own music requires the access to the depth that the string offers. High stuff is less relevent IMO, and this guitar would probably accompany a normal E-E with a drop A 7th string as well (diminished chord acoustic passages aren't the same on the different tuning).

I was thinking about the fanning and scale and I think a 27 to 30 inch fan would be the ticket. Using Ernie Ball Regular Slinky (10-13-17-26-36-46) with a 56 low C and 66 Low Ab - I'm thinking in terms of availability more than anything else - I reckon this could be a reasonable enough compromise for deep tunings, skinny but tight strings - I like crunch! - and reasonable scale for playing length.

I tune the lowest string on my fanned 7 to that same Ab - with a 36" scale it sounds clear as a bell and is nice and tight even with a string as thin as a .048" gage. So yes, definitely the longer the scale the better in terms of a clear tone & tight feel. I think your 27" to 30" fan would be excellent, and you'd be very happy with the tone of your low Ab.

Originally Posted by Xplora

I like the fanning idea. How does one start thinking about where to have the perpendicular fret? I've always found a G major scale to be the easiest scale from the 3rd fret, three notes a string, to play... would that impact where my fan should be from? Let's just say that actually playing a fanned fret guitar is not going to be an option in Australia.

Ah you're in Australia, damn, I was going to suggest that if happened to live anywhere close to my area you'd be welcome to come for a visit & try my guitars. Oh well, if your ever flying over here let me know. But in the mean time there's a fantastic Australian builder who goes by DPM here and runs Oni guitars.
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/member.php?u=287

He's already built an 8-string fanned fret beauty for another member here. Check out the pics in this thread: Oni Guitars

To help layout your fanned fret specs and choose which fret you'd like to be the perpendicular one, make sure you get to know this great online program which will spit out fretboard diagrams with all the dimensions according to any specs you choose: http://www.fretfind.ekips.org/2d/nonparallel.php

Originally Posted by Xplora

I was only thinking about the fanning last night that it should make the normal fretting of simple chords (such as a xx3223x) easier, not more difficult, in the lower frets? That your hand just rotates with the fan?

I'd say so yes. The frets kind of splay outwards the same way your fingers do when you hold your wrist below the neck (which you'd probably be forced to do anyway with that many strings.) As I love to say, I'll never go back to straight frets - the fan is so much more comfortable.

Another point which many who don't play long scales are not aware of is that the longer the scale, the easier it is to press the strings down to the frets. This is because the perceived tension on each string feels exponentially tighter as you approach the nut (or bridge, but of course there's no frets at the bridge) and on a longer scale guitar there is a greater distance from the nut to the first fret. So it feels like you have much lower action than you actually do, compared to a regular scale guitar.

Originally Posted by Xplora

Sorry about the long post, you've gotten me thinking much more about how all this comes together!

Well here's one right back at you! I obsess over these design issues every day, so I'm very happy to discuss them with anyone who'll listen . I'm currently working on a trem design for my next prototype which will be a 9-string tuned in all 4ths. Keep me informed of your thinking and whatever steps you decide to take on your instrument - I think there's nothing like playing a guitar which you conceived out of your own imagination.

[Durero]

Oh one more thought about choosing the perpendicular fret - if you choose the 12th fret then the angle of your nut and bridge will be perfectly symmetrical - if you have the exact same string spacing at both ends (no string taper.) But most guitars do have some taper with a narrower spacing at the nut than at the bridge. So then the 11th or 10th fret being perpendicular will get you a symmetrical nut & bridge angle.

However, many fanned-fret players prefer to have the bridge at a steeper angle than the nut - this feels very natural for damping & palm-muting with your picking hand, and makes barring across the strings easier at the first fret because of the shallower angle. Again, consulting that Fretfind 2D program mentioned above will allow you to tweak this to your liking.

(and you can never make too many fretboard mockups!)

[Xplora]

Well I feel pretty sold on a fanned fret setup. Just a matter of getting a few fretboard cardboard blanks and having a play around with that.

Still floating a bit on the wood selection. It has to have mahogany in the body, it just has to. Best tonewood for my purposes ever. EMG 81 plus Mahogany is a sound that I will never tire of, too many of my favourite bands used that combo. But I need to step out a bit as well, which is why I've considered the ebony top and laminate neck. Bit more brightness into the sound. But I've been told elsewhere that I'd be wasting my time with the ebony? I kinda felt that an ebony top would go pretty well, even if it was only maccassar ebony. Pretty it up a bit. I like maple too, oh the decisions! (A flame maple fretboard and top over a maple/mahogany laminate neck could be an acceptable alternative I suppose).

(BTW, fanned frets plus scallops sound OK?) - What have I created?