[maglor]

I play a 24.75" scale ESP standard series Viper. I use 13-56 guage strings and it plays comfortably at C standard tuning and Drop Bb. It has great intonation with this setup and perfect string tension. (It gets a little bit loose at B standard and Drop A--But I can almost pul it off.)

Anyway, my question is: If I were to by a 28" scale Agile Baritone, would I be able to apply the same principles as above?

In other words, could I get some big ass strings and tune it to A standard or Drop G (or maybe even lower)?

Would it still have good intonation and tension with the right strings.

What are the right strings?

[djpharoah]

Baritones are made for lower tunings - so if your planning on dropping way down - the extended scale length will help with string tension and clarity.

[maglor]

Right. But what about the specifics of my example.

Drop G?

F even?

What strings?

[TomAwesome]

Drop G should be cake. I tune to drop Ab on a 25.5" scale guitar (.010 - .056), and it works great. You could probably get down to F all right on that baritone, too. As for strings, it really depends on your own preferences. I'd probably start with a set that went to somewhere between .056 and .060, see how well it works, and go from there.

[maglor]

Thanks for the feedback!

This is the guitar I've been refering to:



God I can already hear that chuging G.

[Variant]

Originally Posted by maglor

Right. But what about the specifics of my example.

Drop G?

F even?

What strings?

I was in dropped G on my 25.5" RG7620 with a .70 on the lowest string and the tension was pretty much fine, so a 28" should be fine down to F I'm fairly sure. Pickups are going to be your biggest hurdle as the lowest string tends to loose clarity, yet is boomy enough to overpower the others.

[maglor]

OK, I have what may be a stupid question.


If it's so easy to reach an F with a 28" scale baritone, why do bands like Meshuggah need an 8 string? If I remember right their 8 strings are 27" scale and they play at an F. Obviously they have 2 higher strings to play with, but is this the only real advantage?

I’m looking for a rhythm instrument so I don’t need the higher notes.

When Meshuggah recorded “Nothing” the first time around they were playing 7 strings. I read that they re-recorded “Nothing” with their 8 strings because of intonation and tuning problems. But in terms of holding a low tune well and having accurate intonation, isn’t the main issue scale length rather than how many strings you have?

[TomAwesome]

I'm fairly sure their Ibbies have 30" scales, so the advantage isn't the extra strings so much as the extra tension and better intonation.

[maglor]

I stand corrected.

Heres the quote I should have lookes for:

SS:: Ok Marten, we're all gear nuts here - Can you give us a quick rundown on your custom 7 & 8 string Ibanez guitars?

MH: Oh man, lets see. I've got an old black 'n green Ibanez Universe (got it 92/93) that I don't use anymore. It hangs in the studio more like a curiosity. Great guitar though. I got one standard scale black Ibanez Custom 7-string bolt-on neck called "MH" because its got my initials as a fretboard inlay. Another black Ibanez Custom but with Extended scale bolt-on(27 inch if I'm not mistaken) and one Ibanez Custom 27" scale neck-through. Its grey and the lid is Flame-maple I think. I have one Black/worn Nevborn Custom which is standard scale, neck-through. I also got a 7-string acoustic Ibanez. That’s it for the 7's.

Now for the 8's. I've got 2 Black Ibanez custom 8's 30" Neck-through. One Ibanez Custom 8 with piezo, black bolt-on neck 30 ". And finally I have a Nevborn custom 8. Black (big surprise) 29" neck-through. Now I'm unsure of the respective wood selections but all guitars except for the Universe are fitted with Lundgren pick-ups.

Just to reiterate. The issue is scale length not number of strings...


in terms of how low you can go....

[OzzyC]

Originally Posted by maglor

I stand corrected.

Heres the quote I should have lookes for:




Just to reiterate. The issue is scale length not number of strings...


in terms of how low you can go....

It depends on the string guage, Gary Goodman goes down to C00 (17 hz) on a fanned fret (32-34") bass, but he uses a string near 3 tenths of an inch thick.

It relies on a number of factors, really.

[D-EJ915]

good lord you can't even hear that, lol

[OzzyC]

Originally Posted by D-EJ915

good lord you can't even hear that, lol

Yes, you can. With the right (ie. expensive as crap!) speakers it's possible.

[maglor]

Thanks.

As I said earlier, I play a 24.75 scale ESP at C Standard and I have to use 13-56 guage strings, so I get the whole heavy string thing. (I tried a Baritone Light 62 guage set on it to get down to a Drop A and I started to have some intonation issues--and it just seemed like to much string to push between those close frets). Like you (OzzyC) said "It relies on a number of factors."

Clearly string guage is important along with scale length.

But my point is that it's really not about number of strings...

...again, only in terms of how low you can go...

...I don't want to piss off any seven stringers!

[D-EJ915]

Originally Posted by OzzyC

Yes, you can. With the right (ie. expensive as crap!) speakers it's possible.

no, really, most people guaranteed can't hear that low.

[ohio_eric]

20 to 20,000 Hz is the range of a healthy set of human ears. If you're ears have taken some abuse it can be less.

[TomAwesome]

Originally Posted by D-EJ915

no, really, most people guaranteed can't hear that low.

He's right. Are you sure it's C00? I loaded up some of my VSTi plugins, and most things weren't usable below C4. The lowest usable tone I could get was about a C1 on an electric piano. Down to C0 was there, but really not musically usable. I can't easily imagine a whole octave below that being used (no less tuned) successfully on a bass.

[OzzyC]

Originally Posted by Gary Goodman

Adler 12-string/8 octave guitar:
C0 F0 Bflat0 Eflat1 Aflat1 Dflat2 F#2 B2 E3 A3 D4 G4
I use this guitar which has 97 notes from C0-C8 for playing piano music ,non-transposed for two handed touch playing and for projects requiring the tonalpossiblities it has to offer. This instrument includes the guitar,electric bass , but goes both lower and higher than these guitars.

I can't find where it is, but there's a post by him somewhere talking about when he first heard the low C0 coing through his basoon hifi speakers, just as crisp as as any other note in the range of his 12 string.

Originally Posted by TomAwesome

He's right. Are you sure it's C00? I loaded up some of my VSTi plugins, and most things weren't usable below C4. The lowest usable tone I could get was about a C1 on an electric piano. Down to C0 was there, but really not musically usable. I can't easily imagine a whole octave below that being used (no less tuned) successfully on a bass.

Like I said, he does use it,and it can be heard when using speakers capable of the range neccesary.

[Durero]

Originally Posted by ohio_eric

20 to 20,000 Hz is the range of a healthy set of human ears. If you're ears have taken some abuse it can be less.

Originally Posted by D-EJ915

no, really, most people guaranteed can't hear that low.

No I'm afraid Oz is absolutely correct. People constantly refer to the 20 - 20,000 Hz guidelines and start to take them as absolute limits, but that's not what those numbers mean.

The health of your ears affects the upper limit of hearing much more than the lower limit. Eric is right that your hearing range decreases from abuse, and also from age: the upper limit comes down. There are very fine hairs inside our ears which are sensitive to soundwaves traveling down the ear canal. To sense the highest frequencies requires the thinnest & most delicate hairs - which are easily damaged and wear out with age. (This is why I think musicians who don't wear hearing protection are insane. Of all the people in the world, who would value their hearing more than us?)

The lower guideline, 20 Hz, is an attempt to draw the line on when vibrations through the air stop being sensed by our ears, and are instead felt in or on our body. If a note is so low that it's fundamental frequency is not sensed by our ears, but felt in our body, we can still hear it, and indeed every overtone component of that note is still heard by our ears.

We may not get a chance to hear such low notes every day, but they have been in use for centuries in various cultures. No organist in a big old European cathedral would tell you that you can't hear below 20 Hz, they'd play you notes below that instead. It takes some pretty huge pipes and strong bellows to pump air through to create such low notes, but it's done. The huge gongs in Indonesian gamelans (percussion orchestras) can reach extremely low notes depending on their size. The sensation of 'hearing' them feels more like getting hit in the chest than listening with your ears. Amplification of such low notes requires really strong subwoofers and a huge amount of power, but again it is done by those who want to. I'm not much of a dance-club guy, but I'm sure some of the sound-engineering types here could pipe in about their P.A. subs which are rated down to 10Hz. I'm sure most of the folks dancing don't care about frequencies but still enjoy the heavy bass grooves which seem to penetrate through their bodies.

[All_¥our_Bass]

Also even if you can't directly hear the fundamental. You can INdirectly hear it. Other than the fundamental there are these lovely things called overtones that are higher up, and thus audible. Now if the human brain recieves incomplete sound information (i.e. the fundamental has been removed) it will use the overtones to artificially add the fundamental back in. So we will still percieve it, but it will have been created by our brains (since it cannot, for the most part, travel through the eardrum, to the inner ear, and then to the brain).

[Deadmask]

i just bought a ESP LTD SC-607B 7-String Baritone Electric Guitar and was planning to tune it to G C G C F A D .. and i was wondering what string size i would need for that, or is it even possible on that guitar ? any help would be awesome thanks

[cev]

Yes, it's definitely possible (it's possible to tune to G on any guitar, really) but we need to know what tuning/gauges you use now in order to recommend a set you'll like.

[Deadmask]

i'm currently using an ibanez 7string, not baritone. tuned to the same thing, i think i have just lthb with a .54 g string i believe. it's decent, but gstring is pretty floppy.

[cev]

Well generally, 27" scale doesn't make a HUGE difference in tension. Tune your current guitar up one note, and that's what the same strings will feel like on the baritone. If you find it's too tight, go down a gauge, otherwise stay where you are.

Definitely upgrade that 54 though. I'd use something in the 64-68 range myself.

[Deadmask]

cool, thanks for the help !

[Naren]

Originally Posted by Deadmask

i'm currently using an ibanez 7string, not baritone. tuned to the same thing, i think i have just lthb with a .54 g string i believe. it's decent, but gstring is pretty floppy.

Yeah, it would be. I think 54 is too light for B (I use a 59 or 60 gauge for B) and G is 2 whole steps (4 half steps) below that. Personally I would use a 74 gauge for a G string. 54 would be fine for C, I think, but way too light for a G. Just for fun, I have tuned my baritone 7-string (27") down to G with a 59 gauge string, but it was way too floppy.

I would recommend increasing your string gauge by at least 12-14, but increasing it by 20-22 would probably be better.