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Unread 01-08-2012, 01:55 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal View Post
Actually, super intricate stuff is EXACTLY what CNC is good at. Who doesn't want frets placed within .005" of the desired spot, or inlays without filler?

Though, there's more to luthiery than fret slotting and clean inlays.
Oops good point, I was thinking about the body.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:06 AM   #252
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I forsee a lot of sold kidneys
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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:37 AM   #253
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If anyone can quantify the difference in the quality of tone and playability between a high-end Ibanez and any other luthier including Carvin, PRS, and name-your-boutique, I will personally bake them a cake and ice it with a 2,000 word poem extolling their awesomeness.

High-end Ibbys like this use as high quality wood and construction as you'll find anywhere. Sure, you can pay more for a roasted maple top and full body binding over zebrawood and custom inlays, and sure it'll be a unique and sexy axe, but if you think any of that translates to superior tone and playability you've officially drank the Kool-Aid.

As for this particular guitar, it gets a "Why?", although I'm sure it'll be awesome for diehard Meshuggah fans and for anyone who's having a hard time deciding between being a bassist or a guitarist.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 09:54 AM   #254
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I like Meshuggah. I like high-end Ibanez guitars (played a few J-customs, owned a really nice Prestige). Personally, I don't see the point in paying as much as they are asking for this particular guitar, as it doesn't meet my needs as a musician.

HOWEVER:

It's an artist-line axe. Of course it's going to be expensive. It's a no-brainer. Have thousands of dollars? Don't want to play Meshuggah's guitar? Go buy a custom! Done!



Really, though, people should just be happy that Ibanez is releasing more high-end 8-string guitars. For the love of God, it comes with a passive pickup (no disrespect meant, of course)! That's not far away from maybe getting a guitar with Lundgrens instead of Lundgren! All I'm saying is, yay for more guitars!
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Unread 01-08-2012, 12:28 PM   #255
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I'm psyched as hell seeing this, and I'm def. not the target market. It's a super-premium limited axe for the collector, for a band that brought 8 strings to the mainstream. And honestly I find this much more attractive than the STEF8B, for nearly the same price (yeah I know, "potentially").
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Unread 01-08-2012, 12:40 PM   #256
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Quote:
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I don't think I have to tell you that CNC machines don't spit out finished guitars, far from it. Nor do I have to go into detail of all of the revered builders who employ their use on a large scale.

I think the quality of Thorn, Suhr, Anderson, KxK, PRS, etc. speaks for itself.
Not speaking of quality... and if it's machine built no it's not finished but you do push a button and out pops a guitar basically ready for fine sanding and finish. You can watch videos online and see Ibanez make like 6 necks at a time with a giant machine, and PRS spit out a finished body blank. I'm not questioning the quality a machine can do though, I'm saying you shouldn't have to pay hourly luthier wage for what a machine puts out in 20mins. I like all the brands you listed, but it doesn't mean I think their pricing is justified.

At the same time maybe $4800 is cheap depending on what handbuilt guitar pricing you're looking at... for instance.

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Plus they're not based in Mexico.
Fender was never implied when speaking of customs.

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Actually, super intricate stuff is EXACTLY what CNC is good at. Who doesn't want frets placed within .005" of the desired spot, or inlays without filler?
Which is why a lot of fretboards come pre slotted, and the best inlay guys out there use CNC so they snap in like puzzle pieces w/ no fillers.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 01:17 PM   #257
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but you do push a button and out pops a guitar basically ready for fine sanding and finish
Not in the least. It'll give you a body blank that still needs sanding (not just fine sanding) and a neck/board that'll still need fretting. Also, all the blanks that make up those pieces will need to be matched and glued by hand before they even enter the CNC mill. And that's just for something absolutely bare bones. Binding is still a fairly intensive hand process, even Cort has whole lines of folks to do it by hand.

A CNC mill can do a lot, but it doesn't do as much work as you're implying. Ron Thorn did a pretty good write up on what a CNC can do, but there's a lot that's still left up to a skilled hand.

Here it is: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sta...ting-read.html

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Unread 01-08-2012, 01:55 PM   #258
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Not in the least. It'll give you a body blank that still needs sanding (not just fine sanding) and a neck/board that'll still need fretting. Also, all the blanks that make up those pieces will need to be matched and glued by hand before they even enter the CNC mill. And that's just for something absolutely bare bones. Binding is still a fairly intensive hand process, even Cort has whole lines of folks to do it by hand.

A CNC mill can do a lot, but it doesn't do as much work as you're implying. Ron Thorn did a pretty good write up on what a CNC can do, but there's a lot that's still left up to a skilled hand.
Which they have machines do that too....and yes binding takes work..but we're looking at a bare bones black guitar with 1 pickup and no binding that costs what a Nicely Figured PRS or hand built McNaught does.

On the other hand not that everybody is a big DF fan but I'm a big fan of the LACS
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:01 PM   #259
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At the end of the day, a guitar is worth more than the sum of it's parts. If it does exactly what you want it to and appeals to you, then you'll pay for it. Considering this is also very much a collectors piece, I would find it better to spend a few grand on something I can actively use and enjoy, than some rare action figure that will never come out of it's box. Some people will see a con where others will see a great investment.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:02 PM   #260
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I think you're missing the point. You're not paying for a builder to craft this, you're paying a premium for a limited edition guitar, dealer mark up, distributor mark up, and of course the cost of Ibanez sourcing the parts, materials, and work needed to build them.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that these are expensive because some guy is building them in his basement workshop.

If quality is on par with price who cares how it was made. I'd take a proper instrument made by ALL machines (something that is currently not possible) then a lump of wood haphazardly made by hand.

It's not the companies job to produce instruments and then sell them for as cheap as humanly possible, it's their job to provide a quality product. It's up to the consumer to decide whether they're willing to pay for that instrument.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:19 PM   #261
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I think you're missing the point. You're not paying for a builder to craft this, you're paying a premium for a limited edition guitar, dealer mark up, distributor mark up, and of course the cost of Ibanez sourcing the parts, materials, and work needed to build them.
You are missing my point.... the entire point of me saying I agree with those saying it's overpriced is the fact that you guys stated it is NOT limited edition. If it was limited to a few pieces I could see charging $5k for a black 1 pickup guitar with no inlays being more reasonable because it'd be more a collector piece..like the insane Jem's they put out or the KH20's that were $9k
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A Considering this is also very much a collectors piece, I would find it better to spend a few grand on something I can actively use and enjoy, than some rare action figure that will never come out of it's box. Some people will see a con where others will see a great investment.
Exactly..it just comes off more as a collector piece with that price IMO. That's all I'm really trying to get at.
As a Meshuggah fan I think the guitar is great, I'm just lost looking at it form a business perspective why you'd put out something out of the budget of 95% of the specific target market of that product.

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It's not the companies job to produce instruments and then sell them for as cheap as humanly possible, it's their job to provide a quality product. It's up to the consumer to decide whether they're willing to pay for that instrument.
True.. but like I already stated companies make products to sell them so you need to hit a price point to meet that demand. Knowing that you could get something to the same specs built by many independent luthiers for half the price to the same if not better quality, how many of these do you really think they will sell if they cost $5k like you say? Do you not agree that it'd of made more sense to put out a model lets say built where the Prestige's are, and priced it at $3000 or $3500. (since other sig's with regular scale are $2500)
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #262
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Well its also just that they know they can charge 5k and get away with it.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:31 PM   #263
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Where did I say this was not limited edition?

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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:34 PM   #264
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Thanks for all the likes everyone, haha. Yes I was having a winge about people having a winge. Problem? haha.

To me, this guitar will be in the same league as the $8,000+ JEMs on the market. Awesome guitar though, I'd love to see one in person.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:37 PM   #265
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I didn't say YOU said it wasn't limited, but you did just say it is limited....Yet earlier in this thread it was pointed out this is NOT a limited run when people asked.
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Does anyone know how many will be produced? Surely only 100 or something??
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Any info on if these will be a limited run?
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Per Rich, these will be limited to whoever orders them.

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you're paying a premium for a limited edition guitar
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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:43 PM   #266
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True.. but like I already stated companies make products to sell them so you need to hit a price point to meet that demand. Knowing that you could get something to the same specs built by many independent luthiers for half the price to the same if not better quality, how many of these do you really think they will sell if they cost $5k like you say? Do you not agree that it'd of made more sense to put out a model lets say built where the Prestige's are, and priced it at $3000 or $3500. (since other sig's with regular scale are $2500)
Ibanez, and a lot of other makers, have shown that $5k guitars sell, and they sell pretty good.

If someone is shopping seriously for a $3500 instrument to buy ~$1k isn't going to be a deal breaker most of the time. Even if this was $3k, people would still be complaining. How much better would it really sell?

Remember, large companies like Ibanez are not competing in a meaningful way with smaller builders. Ibanez could care less what KxK, BRJ, McNaught, Thorn, etc. are up to, as they aren't going for the custom guitar market. Does that mean smaller shops don't snag a few sales away from the big guys? Not at all, just not enough for them to even consider repricing themselves.

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Unread 01-08-2012, 02:52 PM   #267
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Ibanez, and a lot of other makers, have shown that $5k guitars sell, and they sell pretty good.
I already stated I agree with this.... they do sell guitars in that range, but those guitars seem more deserving of the higher price..they aren't just a long scaled dark shade of grey 1 pickup no inlay guitar..

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If someone is shopping seriously for a $3500 instrument to buy ~$1k isn't going to be a deal breaker most of the time. Even if this was $3k, people would still be complaining. How much better would it really sell?
Honestly I think If this was $3k I bet they'd sell a hell of a lot more of them.

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Remember, large companies like Ibanez are not competing in a meaningful way with smaller builders. Ibanez could care less what KxK, BRJ, McNaught, Thorn, etc. are up to, as they aren't going for the custom guitar market. Does that mean smaller shops don't snag a few sales away from the big guys? Not at all, just not enough for them to even consider repricing themselves.
I don't buy this for a second and this guitar is the prime example... Ibanez wouldn't even be making 8's if it wasn't for Meshuggah playing Nevborn pretty much exclusively because Ibanez wouldn't make them an 8. Clearly they saw the marketing there so they made them customs and it's taken them like 8 years to give these guys a sig model and
when it's finally put out it's looking to be out of the price range of the target consumer for it. You don't think Ibanez started putting 27 fret models out because of what Caparison was doing to the market since the Hamer Californian doesn't exist anymore? Also look at how several of the big companies clearly ripped off the Vixen shape in the last 2 years alone so you can't say they don't pay attention.

Like I said multiple times..I like this guitar I'm just looking at it like this..
RG2228 = $2k
M8 = $245 *RETAIL* Basically same price as 2 EMG 808's
Neck Thru - Add $200?
Longer Scale - Add $200?
Pay Artist Royalty since Sig Model - ??? Keeping in mind a K7 is $2300
So fair price on Meshuggah 8 - $2800 - $3400
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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #268
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I don't buy this for a second and this guitar is the prime example... Ibanez wouldn't even be making 8's if it wasn't for Meshuggah playing Nevborn pretty much exclusively because Ibanez wouldn't make them an 8. Clearly they saw the marketing there so they made them customs and it's taken them like 8 years to give these guys a sig model and
when it's finally put out it's looking to be out of the price range of the target consumer for it. You don't think Ibanez started putting 27 fret models out because of what Caparison was doing to the market since the Hamer Californian doesn't exist anymore? Also look at how several of the big companies clearly ripped off the Vixen shape in the last 2 years alone so you can't say they don't pay attention.
Ibanez producing a model via an endorsees request is very different from them taking notes on what small builders are doing. Could the small builders willingness to experiment and sculpt what an artist plays make a difference? You bet it does, but it's not a direct reaction.

Ibanez released the 27-fret Xiphos due to Peter Joseph, who was playing 27 fret Caparisons. He had already signed with Ibanez which is why they made the 27 fret Xiphos in the first place.

Big companies are driven by artist demands and the demand of the market.

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Like I said multiple times..I like this guitar I'm just looking at it like this..
RG2228 = $2k
M8 = $245 *RETAIL* Basically same price as 2 EMG 808's
Neck Thru - Add $200?
Longer Scale - Add $200?
Pay Artist Royalty since Sig Model - ??? Keeping in mind a K7 is $2300
So fair price on Meshuggah 8 - $2800 - $3400
The M8M is not being made fully at Fujigen like the other two models you're talking about, but at Sugi so that already makes this comparison pretty off.

Besides the outline of the body and the hardware everything on this guitar is different from an RG2228, so I don't see how that should be the jumping point.

You're also forgetting they'll be selling less as they're a pretty purpose built signature 8-string, something that hasn't been around too long.

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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:05 PM   #269
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^I know this, but they see it and when they realize it's what artists want, and consumers want what artists have, they act upon it... I just never got why they only did it on IMO an ugly body style.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:08 PM   #270
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^I know this, but they see it and when they realize it's what artists want, and consumers want what artists have, they act upon it... I just never got why they only did it on IMO an ugly body style.
Exactly, it's from seeing what the market wants, not what small builders are making. If that was the case this would have come out years ago.

I agree, the Vixen is pretty ghastly, though I'm not a huge V fan. Shows what I know if enough folks want to copy the design.

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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:10 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal View Post
The M8M is not being made fully at Fujigen like the other two models you're talking about, but at Sugi so that already makes this comparison pretty off.

Besides the outline of the body and the hardware everything on this guitar is different from an RG2228, so I don't see how that should be the jumping point.

You're also forgetting they'll be selling less as they're a pretty purpose built signature 8-string, something that hasn't been around too long.
It's essentially a Neck Thru RG2228 w/ a different finish, 1 pickup and a longer scale.... (yes made in a different factory but I addressed this already, and even if it's more hands on it's not AS hands on as most custom small luthiers who yet again are half price if not less) Which is why I was being generous on my opinion of a reasonable/fair price.

Guess you missed where I said
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Do you not agree that it'd of made more sense to put out a model lets say built where the Prestige's are, and priced it at $3000 or $3500. (since other sig's with regular scale are $2500)
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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:10 PM   #272
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It seems you're not really the target market, so that probably explains why you object to the price. If I had the lifestyle where I could afford an instrument like this, I would and most likely wouldn't regret it. 8 strings are fun, specs wise it seems solid and I love Meshuggah so as a collectors item and an instrument it appeals to me. It won't to others and will seem outrageous as you have pointed out.
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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:14 PM   #273
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It's essentially a Neck Thru RG2228 w/ a different finish, 1 pickup and a longer scale....

Also you apparently didn't read where I said
It's a 2228 with a different scale, different headstock (now), different electronics, different color, different body wood, different inlay, different manufacturer, different neck shape, different neck joint. In fact, as I stated, besides the hardware (bridge, nut, tuners) and shape (RG) they are completely different instruments.

Also, no need to get snippy. Lets keep things civil.

Sorry I can't keep up with all your edits.

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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:15 PM   #274
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Quote:
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Like I said multiple times..I like this guitar I'm just looking at it like this..
RG2228 = $2k
M8 = $245 *RETAIL* Basically same price as 2 EMG 808's
Neck Thru - Add $200?
Longer Scale - Add $200?
Pay Artist Royalty since Sig Model - ??? Keeping in mind a K7 is $2300
So fair price on Meshuggah 8 - $2800 - $3400
But they'll probably sell 10-20 times more K7's than these, gotta make it worth their while for setting up to produce a new line!
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Unread 01-08-2012, 03:19 PM   #275
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No, that's not why I object to the price... you pointed out the term collector item/instrument and for that I have already stated the price is fair.. but it's not a limited run so therefore I don't see it as a collectors item as I would on something like the limited run Vai Jems etc.. I don't see why it's so hard to understand that all I am saying is it's priced like a limited run but it's not a limited run...and being a Meshuggah Sig it's targeted at their fans which are mainly younger....so most of their target reason for releasing this guitar can't even remotely afford one. Granted it's 8 years after Meshuggah got their so you can argue well the original fans can probably afford one now... but come on, you get what I am saying already.

It seems like it'd make more sense to of put out a $3000 Sig model and then put out a high end $5k model that has a neck pickup like most actual players want.
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It's a 2228 with a different scale, different headstock (now), different electronics, different color, different body wood, different inlay, different manufacturer, different neck shape, different neck joint. In fact, as I stated, besides the hardware (bridge, nut, tuners) and shape (RG) they are completely different instruments.
Also, no need to get snippy. Lets keep things civil.
Sorry I can't keep up with all your edits.
All across the line they have different electronics, neck shapes etc..that's nothing to change the price over..it's got 1 pickup, that's less work for routing and electronics... the color is no harder than any other finish... it's still just a 1 humbucker neck thru RG with a longer scale and slightly different headstock... that doesn't cost thousands more to do.
Didn't mean for it to come off like that just pointed out I stated they should make it in the other factory with other high end prestige and charge less if need be to hit target market and sell many more... and I didn't wanna spam so I try to put all the replies into one post
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