RE 11 string custom build

[VariedStyles]

I have this 11 string build in mind, and a budget of $1000. I used to be in the loop regarding ERG luthiers, but I'm a bit out of touch now...one grand is a little on the cheap side of things as far as ERGs are concerned (or so I think), so can someone say whom I should go to for this?


(There are a few luthiers around where I live whom I could give it...but I don't think anyone of them has done an ERG before.)


From what I remember, Krappy is a good option, but my two gripes are that I don't know how good a tap instrument will be for fingerstyle, and the bridges are not Strat-style fixed bridge (something I'm just set on, for certain reasons).

Tom D (OAF) was an option back then, but a recent trip to his site seems to suggest that the prices have been upped (real sad IMO).

If you think it's a futile exercise at this price point, feel free to say so.

[Dayn]

I think it's rather futile, but... from reading a lot of NGD threads, the only luthiers I can think of who may be able to pull off what you want closest to that price point are Ran Guitars and Oakland Axe Factory.

[Hollowway]

Yeah I don't think OAF was ever that cheap. He did have a production 10 string, but even that started higher than your budget. The difficulty is that most of the parts will need to be custom, too, including the pickups. And the hardware, such as tuning pegs, saddles, etc adds up because you are nearly buying for 2 standard guitars. Best bet it to save your money and get it done right the first time.

[anne]

Considering how much you're going to have to pay just to get it to India, that sounds so super impossible.

[Murdstone]

It seems now that he gleaned some good attention Tom raised his prices a little. And like Hollowway said, a grand wouldn't have even cut it before.

[VariedStyles]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys

How much money, in your opinion, should one be expecting to spend for this? I could wait and add in a few hundreds...more than that?

I seem to remember an OAF ten string going for like $1200-1300, though I do understand how an 11 would cost more.

As goes shipping, Krappy said they'd ship for $95, which seems alright considering the instrument's price.

Oh, I also should've spoke of Roter in my post - Roter seemed really promising but I seem to see a lot of horror stories regarding delivery (and now the website doesn't seem to be there either).

[EtherealEntity]

I'd consider $2000-$2300 ish to be the cheapest end of things.

[Stealthdjentstic]

Like Holloway said, you'd need a substancial amount of custom parts. Save up 3-5k and get it done well. Don't be so jaat about it.

[vansinn]

Dear gods, a $1K 11-stringer. Impossible, even if sacrificing here'n'there'n'everywhere.
Even if done, you'll end up with a most mediocre instrument. Do not walk this path..
I might even say a DIY build could easily run into $1K on woods, parts and a few difficult-to-do parts done by a luthier.
We've seen enough sub-1K multistring attempts as is. 8/9 string semi-custom partly limited production models is a different topic, but 11..

[celticelk]

Brief aside/rant here: I think it's important to remember how badly our price expectations on guitars have been conditioned by economies of scale and cheap multinational labor. When the first production Telecasters were introduced in the early 1950s, they were priced at $189.50. That seems cheap, until you do the inflation calculations and find out that in today's dollars, that's the equivalent of $1567. Which is, incidentally, roughly Tom Drinkwater's advertised price for a multi-scale bolt-neck 8-string. The mass-produced parts like tuners and bridges might have gotten a little cheaper over the years, but hand labor is still priced about the same, and I would guess that wood prices are stable or have increased, depending on the woods you're using. (And this assumes that mass-produced parts are available for your build - you might be able to get a Hipshot 8 for $100 or thereabouts, but for an 11-string bridge you're going to have to buy or fabricate single-string bridges, and ABM's single-string bridges run about $40 each.)

And keep in mind that the small builders aren't living high on the hog. Let's use Tom as an example, since he's got standard models on his website with set prices. My build is taking about 6 weeks from start to shipment, so that's roughly 9 build cycles per year. Assume generously that he can consistently work on 4 instruments at a time. If he's working at full capacity year-round, that's 36 guitars at about $1500 each, or $54,000. Since he's self-employed, pull out about a third of that in state and federal taxes; that alone takes us down to $36,000. Then subtract materials costs: pickups, hardware, wood, stain and finishing, strings, the occasional new or replacement piece of shop gear.... You can see where this is going. These guys work hard for love of their craft. Let's pay them what they're worth.

[urklvt]

Originally Posted by celticelk

Brief aside/rant here: I think it's important to remember how badly our price expectations on guitars have been conditioned by economies of scale and cheap multinational labor. When the first production Telecasters were introduced in the early 1950s, they were priced at $189.50. That seems cheap, until you do the inflation calculations and find out that in today's dollars, that's the equivalent of $1567. Which is, incidentally, roughly Tom Drinkwater's advertised price for a multi-scale bolt-neck 8-string. The mass-produced parts like tuners and bridges might have gotten a little cheaper over the years, but hand labor is still priced about the same, and I would guess that wood prices are stable or have increased, depending on the woods you're using. (And this assumes that mass-produced parts are available for your build - you might be able to get a Hipshot 8 for $100 or thereabouts, but for an 11-string bridge you're going to have to buy or fabricate single-string bridges, and ABM's single-string bridges run about $40 each.)

And keep in mind that the small builders aren't living high on the hog. Let's use Tom as an example, since he's got standard models on his website with set prices. My build is taking about 6 weeks from start to shipment, so that's roughly 9 build cycles per year. Assume generously that he can consistently work on 4 instruments at a time. If he's working at full capacity year-round, that's 36 guitars at about $1500 each, or $54,000. Since he's self-employed, pull out about a third of that in state and federal taxes; that alone takes us down to $36,000. Then subtract materials costs: pickups, hardware, wood, stain and finishing, strings, the occasional new or replacement piece of shop gear.... You can see where this is going. These guys work hard for love of their craft. Let's pay them what they're worth.

You, sir, have spoken the truth.

[VariedStyles]

celticelk, I merely asked for the price I should be expecting to pay. I didn't even say something like 'that's too much', something that'd actually warrant a lambasting of that level. Have I committed an offence, or indirectly hinted that luthiers don't deserve their prices, by asking what I asked? What you say is good to know, but that's indirectly implying just that. Spare the out-of-the-loop guy much? Sheesh. -_-'

On topic - more years of waiting and saving, I guess. I also have the options of experimenting with a somewhat cheap classical 11 (Asturias, Bartolex), or getting a Krappy ($850 - in fact, he's likely to charge 825 because it's an 11 and not a 12; haven't heard any quality gripes either.), or just 'downsizing' and getting an 8/9 instead.

Thank you for your inputs.

[thrsher]

Originally Posted by VariedStyles

Tom D (OAF) was an option back then, but a recent trip to his site seems to suggest that the prices have been upped (real sad IMO).

.

statement bothers me....that is all

[VariedStyles]

Originally Posted by thrsher

statement bothers me....that is all

'real sad' because I used to dream of buying that 10 string, and the price (which I clearly don't remember well now, as proved in the posts above) was something that was still within the horizon. I'm not exactly rich, I can't conjure up $2500 even if I sold everything I had.

[celticelk]

Originally Posted by VariedStyles

celticelk, I merely asked for the price I should be expecting to pay. I didn't even say something like 'that's too much', something that'd actually warrant a lambasting of that level. Have I committed an offence, or indirectly hinted that luthiers don't deserve their prices, by asking what I asked? What you say is good to know, but that's indirectly implying just that. Spare the out-of-the-loop guy much? Sheesh. -_-'

On topic - more years of waiting and saving, I guess. I also have the options of experimenting with a somewhat cheap classical 11 (Asturias, Bartolex), or getting a Krappy ($850 - in fact, he's likely to charge 825 because it's an 11 and not a 12; haven't heard any quality gripes either.), or just 'downsizing' and getting an 8/9 instead.

Thank you for your inputs.

Apologies if I offended - I may have read too strongly into your "real sad" comment about Tom's prices. He's building a guitar for me right now, and I've been chatting a lot with him about both guitar stuff and our personal lives, and so may be overdefensive on his behalf. In my own defense, I don't seem to be the only one who read that comment differently than you intended.

With respect to Krappy: I've never played one, but I did consider ordering an instrument from them some time back. I think that some of the points I've raised with respect to builders' costs should be considered WRT their pricing. Either they've got a secret supply of good-quality hardware and pickups at bargain-basement prices, or they're using cheap off-brand parts. (The mention of "EMG style blade pickups" on their pricing page certainly suggests the latter.) And either they're dramatically undervaluing their labor, or they don't actually put much work into crafting the instruments. This is not to say that you shouldn't order a Krappy, or that you won't enjoy the end result, but personally I'd rather pay a little more and work with a builder who seems to have somewhat higher standards for their products.

On a different note, thanks for the pointers to Bartolex and Asturias! I haven't really investigated the options on nylon-string ERGs, so it's good to see what's available. And I'm curious about the 11-string concept you have in mind - could you tell us some more about that?

[Valennic]

Originally Posted by celticelk

*words*

See....the thing with Krappy, is that he does it for shits and giggles. He loves it, but he does it for fun. And it's by no means his only source of income. I've chatted with the guy in person, and he just has a blast making them. It's not skin off his back at all to let them go at that price, as a matter of fact he likes that someone can get an instrument with that range at such an affordable price.

He's one hell of an odd dude.

[LolWotGuitar]

You need to get a larger budget....
There isn't a custom company out there that does custom builds like that for $1000, and plus freight...good luck! haha

[VariedStyles]

Originally Posted by celticelk

I don't seem to be the only one who read that comment differently than you intended.

If so, my apologies - I do think it could've been phrased better.

celticelk and Valennic - that is some interesting insights and info about Krappy...thank you for the food for thought...

I too came to know of Bartolex and Asturias only recently - I'm sure there are a few other such companies and luthiers out there doing comparitively cheap ERCs ('extended range classicals'? ). Some are cheap to the point of not unwarranted, and all-too-often well placed, suspicion (Orfea 10 string...?)

My build is in essence a Charlie Hunter thinline semihollow archtop, with 5 strings for bass and 6 for guitar (I'm not even sure if an archtop like that is possible!). Till very recently I had been doing classical guitar, and jazz on (6 string) tapguitar, till one day I realized that by
a.mastering artificial harmonics,
b.down tuning the lowest strings, and
c.utilizing ERGs,
I could get the benefits of tapguitar on fingerstyle guitar - and I for one prefer the fingerstyle sound. The tuning for my build goes Db0 Gb0 B1 E1 A1 - E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4. - E and A repeating is just more logical for me, and the lower strings are not as much for lower range as for getting notes from E1 onwards almost anywhere on the fretboard, whether other voices go high or low. That way, I hope to emulate a bass and a guitar, with no voice independence issues.

</tldr>

LolWotGuitar...inorite? RTFT.

[anne]

Originally Posted by VariedStyles

The tuning for my build goes Db0 Gb0 B1 E1 A1 - E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4.

Wait, you want C#0 and E4 on the same neck?

[ixlramp]

That's very similar to 11 string ERB tuning, you'll need a 34" scale for that low C#0. Perhaps consider an 8 string tuned in fifths for the same range?

Prometeus Guitars make simple low-cost ERGs and ERBs, an 11 string bass costs 1800 Euros. I think he's based in Italy?
Prometeus Guitars

[celticelk]

Originally Posted by VariedStyles

My build is in essence a Charlie Hunter thinline semihollow archtop, with 5 strings for bass and 6 for guitar (I'm not even sure if an archtop like that is possible!). Till very recently I had been doing classical guitar, and jazz on (6 string) tapguitar, till one day I realized that by
a.mastering artificial harmonics,
b.down tuning the lowest strings, and
c.utilizing ERGs,
I could get the benefits of tapguitar on fingerstyle guitar - and I for one prefer the fingerstyle sound. The tuning for my build goes Db0 Gb0 B1 E1 A1 - E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4. - E and A repeating is just more logical for me, and the lower strings are not as much for lower range as for getting notes from E1 onwards almost anywhere on the fretboard, whether other voices go high or low. That way, I hope to emulate a bass and a guitar, with no voice independence issues.

An interesting and ambitious concept! A thought: if the lowest bass strings are for accessing E1 and higher notes at any position one is playing on the guitar fingerboard, why not shorten those strings? I'm thinking something similar to the 5th string on a 5-string banjo, or a reversed version of the Strandberg hybrid scale system: your bottom four strings might all be tuned to E1, but their "zero frets" would be further and further up the fretboard. That doesn't simplify the build much (or at all!), but it might overcome some of the difficulties of constructing a neck that provides good tone and intonation across such widely disparate pitch ranges.

[anne]

Also may be worth considering the cost of strings for this thing. It won't be like buying a five-dollar pack of D'addarios every so often.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by VariedStyles

Db0 Gb0 B1 E1 A1 - E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4. - E and A repeating is just more logical for me

You could consider EAEA EADGBE for 10 strings with almost the same range. Or perhaps the bass strings in fifths GDA EADGBE for 9 strings and use an Agile 9 string.
If you want a guitar or baritone type scale i think Gb0 will be the lowest possible string.

[Hollowway]

Another issue is the pickup. There aren't too many options out there for pickups for greater than 9 strings (or greater than 8, when fanned). I've been talking with Tom about a new build, and the pickup options are going to be the most challenging issue.

[TemjinStrife]

Bartolini makes some pretty gigantic humbuckers. Not cheap though.