Prejudice against ERGs?

[BlackStar7]

I apologize if this has been posted elsewhere (couldn't find it on here), but I had to share this:

I know this guy claims to be joking (and if the responses are any indication, most people don't seem too amused), but his attitude seems to be reflective of real animosity I've seen towards ERGs mainly outside of SS.org. I'm baffled by how people are so closed off to the possibilities these instruments present, much less how many of them seem almost personally affronted by their very existence. Has anyone else noticed a certain amount of contempt?

It seems like people always want to excuse anything new as a "fad." I know the 7 string was viewed that way for a long time, and probably still is by some, but it's clearly here to stay. Has anyone here had firsthand experience with bias against their ERGs?

[bostjan]

Yeah this was posted here a few months ago and there was a very mixed response.

Either way, this represents the attitude of most music store/shop workers toward 8 strings.

[JeffFromMtl]

Back when the RG2228 first hit markets I saw and heard a lot of people knocking 8-string guitars with the "well, don't you think that's a little excessive?" bit. But ever since I got my 8-string, nobody's said a single bad word about it. Generally, the responses I've gotten are along the lines of "...., is that thing ever cool!".

[Van Heezey]

Originally Posted by bostjan

Either way, this represents the attitude of most music store/shop workers toward 8 strings.

Well, I'm really glad my local shop DOES carry a few 7's, and they encourage me to get an 8, just because they know I want one and they would really like to try it out. They're actually open minded, and most of them are blue and jazz players anyways. Gotta love decent people, no?

[op1e]

"DUGH why dont you jus play a bass?" is what every GC noob behind the counter says. Les Pauls tuned to C fellas, or drop D. Nothing else exists or has a purpose in this world. Why would ya wanna be able to still strum a full G chord and still hit a lower register all on one instrument? I wont give business to anyone who looks at me funny for playing 7s.

[kylendm]

My girlfriend was like that but once I played a few of my songs and Aspiration by After the Burial she understood what good it could do.

[ArkaneDemon]

I co-op at a music instrument store, and all my coworkers always say stuff that annoys me like "7 strings? Tuning low? Drop tuning? Double bass pedals? Kids these days..." Even though the two guys who say stuff like this are 21 and 26, so not old at all. It's just that they're either classic rock lovers or folkies, which is cool, I don't really care what they listen to until they start bashing people who want to go beyond three ....ing chords. Annoys the shit out of me. I play a 7, but even if I didn't I'd still get annoyed.

The only thing that I don't find acceptable is if someone gets an 8 string, tunes it an octave lower than standard, and only uses the lowest two strings to chug. Seriously, .... off. Get a thirty inch scale two string guitar and chug away. But if you get an 8 string and use it like Tosin, or other fellows, then the purpose of getting an extended range guitar gets fulfilled.

[BlackStar7]

I don't get what it is about music stores that leads to employees having such codified and often overly vocal opinions about the musical pursuits of others. Having been on both sides of the counter, I can say in their defense they deal with some pretty thickheaded customers, but man that kinda behavior is just unnecessary and drives away business. I've had to walk out of GC for comments exactly like those above on more than one occasion when looking for a 7.

[troyguitar]

They're seen as pointless because many (if not most) people who use them only use the low strings anyway so there's no point in them having more strings.

[failshredder]

Originally Posted by troyguitar

They're seen as pointless because many (if not most) people who use them only use the low strings anyway so there's no point in them having more strings.

QFT.

Plus, the guitar is intended to be a midrange instrument. It sits in a specific range of frequencies, and I think that in most cases, 7 strings is already pushing it. Despite being a pure guitarist (I can write basslines in a common-practice Romantic sort of way, but whatever), I really, really like being able to hear the bass as a separate instrument on an album. This is what makes Rust in Peace and Traced in Air such good albums.

Now, bands like AAL and Meshuggah are really cool, but Meshuggah is a one-trick pony, and AAL is, while really awesome, kind of "empty"-sounding to me - because the guitars are invading the bass range, and the mids wind up a little weak in the mix, like dance music. Sure, there's stuff like the sweeping lick in CAFO, but that tends to be in an upper register. Get what I mean?

[WickedSymphony]

^ That would kind of depend on the arrangement as well. For example, when I write chord lines that are low (I only play 7 strings in standard at the moment, mind you, so there isn't too much cross over for me), I give the bass a more melodic line to help fill things out and also keep things interesting.

[vansinn]

How do I put it..it never amazes me how so many can willfully blind their eyes towards evolution.
Take a look a couple hundred years back, and see how much the guitar has changed.
Would be a pity if it development had stopped with a certain '59 mahogany slab, as great as it is in it's own right.

While of course there's absolutely nothing wrong with a traditional 6-stringer, at least having just the curiosity to ask what 8(+) strings just might be used for really doesn't hurt..
Just might open the eyes to ERG's not just being for lower tunings, but also very much for expanded versatility.

I'm truely gratefull for having found this great community of openhearted players and luthiers, opening my eyes further that I might've managed myself

Talking about music shops, I'm very happy that, even with such a small potential market here in Copenhagen, our main shop over the past couple of years have carried several sevens, like Schecters and Ibbys, and has had RGA8 and RG2228.

Fun.. many bass players seems much more openhearted and interested in expanding their world of musical creativity.

[WickedSymphony]

Yeh, I wonder if 6 string basses get as much hate as 8 string guitars. It's still only 2 extra strings

[failshredder]

Originally Posted by WickedSymphony

^ That would kind of depend on the arrangement as well. For example, when I write chord lines that are low (I only play 7 strings in standard at the moment, mind you, so there isn't too much cross over for me), I give the bass a more melodic line to help fill things out and also keep things interesting.

Yeah, that works. But the bass is supposed to have a more melodic line than it's normally given anyway. And if you're playing 7s in standard, you're not pushing it low enough for it to make a difference (to my ears).

[arsonist]

I honestly think this is the most retarded conversation topic ever.

I've already seen another thread with some dude whining about how the other guitarist in his band is so totally completely against 8-string guitars, and how bad this makes him feel.

No matter what you do in the world, whatever that may be, there's absolutely no difference, there WILL BE someone who doesn't like what you're doing. This is an absolutely fundamental law of the universe, something which should simply be accepted as fact, then move on.

Some people just like hating on stuff, and often there's absolutely nothing you can say which changes that. You could spit all the arguments, proof, subjective thoughts and objective facts, and it won't matter.

You could go to work in your underwear, give money to cancer patients, find a cure for AIDS or just sit around and do nothing, but either way, there will be at least 1 douchebag who thinks "that sh*t is whack!". get over it.

[rug]

I dunno - I thought it was fairly entertaining, especially with the dude's accent. I really wouldn't worry too much about people who think like that. It's like everything else - *very* loosely speaking, the younger generation is just going to be more progressive than the generation before. Slavery, voting rights for women, gay marriage, take your pick. So all the old dudes that are pissed that Skynard isn't popular anymore will gradually dwindle in number. Yeah, I know that's a harsh way to put it, but I'm not going to let a Youtube video take the shine off of my day.

Besides...I'm sure there has got to be more than one person who watched the video who didn't know anything about 8 string guitars and now wants one.

[bostjan]

Kids these days and their electrical guitars and trap drum kits! Why, back in my day, it took four people to play drums! And the only electrical guitar players were playing Hawaiian-style, by George!

...

I laugh now, but some day I'll be the crotchety old man saying how back in my salad days we played seven and eight string guitars, and we drove cars everywhere, and nearly everyone could own a house...

[ArkaneDemon]

I laughed until my stomach hurt from that video when I first watched it. The difference between that video, and the people I work with is that the people I work are genuinely hostile to anything that isn't traditional. Hostile to the point where I just want to walk away from the place.

The one time (a bit off topic), the two were talking about bringing back psychedelic music, and the one said "we'll just wait until all the metalheads die out so we can bring it back." I was so close to punching the guy in the mouth.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by failshredder

Plus, the guitar is intended to be a midrange instrument. It sits in a specific range of frequencies, and I think that in most cases, 7 strings is already pushing it.

...AAL is, while really awesome, kind of "empty"-sounding to me - because the guitars are invading the bass range, and the mids wind up a little weak in the mix, like dance music. Sure, there's stuff like the sweeping lick in CAFO, but that tends to be in an upper register. Get what I mean?

Is my guitar meant to be a midrange instrument? I didn't know that! The warning labels must have been removed by someone else before I got it! *laugh*

Seriously, though, *who* intended guitar to be a midrange instrument? And, if intentions have weight, wasn't it intended to be an acoustic instrument, with gut strings? *laugh*

My eight-strings have a range of an electric bass and an electric guitar. With effects, I use it to emulate and cover parts for double bass, cello, viola and violin, as well as wind instruments.

I also follow the examples and playing of Leo Nocentelli, and use my instruments to do a style of funky interlocking bass/guitar parts.

I'll point out that the range issue is something which decent producers and arrangers deal with all the time. One has to leave space for the various parts and timbres. However, that's more an issue of being intelligent about arrangement. As I'm a huge fan of Kansas and other prog bands, I can't help but notice that a lot of the instruments occupy a similar pitch range, but the recordings are still amazing.

It's reasonable to ask about whether a group manages to do clear recordings, but I believe that raising the question of "intention" on the part of an instrument designer, as opposed to the intention of the musician who is utilizing that instrument, is a non-starter. Remember, Andreas Segovia had strong feelings about Jimi Hendrix violating the intention of the original guitar, and most of us here are descendents of that branch of the guitar family tree on which Hendrix resides. *laugh*

And, of course, Segovia also broke a lot of rules, the greatest irony of all when he was making judgements.

Cheers!

[clouds]

Originally Posted by ArkaneDemon

The one time (a bit off topic), the two were talking about bringing back psychedelic music, and the one said "we'll just wait until all the metalheads die out so we can bring it back." I was so close to punching the guy in the mouth.

Wtf?

This thread has really made me want to go to a few of my locals and strike up some conversations about ERGs, to see their reactions.

[SkullCrusher]

I bet he wasn't joking at the time of the video, and has realised he's a bastard.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by ArkaneDemon

The one time (a bit off topic), the two were talking about bringing back psychedelic music, and the one said "we'll just wait until all the metalheads die out so we can bring it back." I was so close to punching the guy in the mouth.

"Dude, if people actually *wanted* to hear that hippie shit, you wouldn't have to wait until something else died out. It's called survival of the fittest. That's why there aren't so many Deadhead bands around. ...Oh, wait! I bet it's the acid talking!"

*laugh*

[ArkaneDemon]

Originally Posted by clouds

Wtf?

This thread has really made me want to go to a few of my locals and strike up some conversations about ERGs, to see their reactions.

My sentiments exactly. They always pick on me for being a "metalhead", even though I listen to and enjoy jazz, blues, classical music (I've played cello for two years), funk, a lot of electronic music and a whole other range of music. They don't see that. They just see me as the generic metal guy who breathes metal and plays a sevenstring just so he can chug, etc.

Ironically enough, I only stated I like metal the first day I worked there, and never mentioned it ever again. I haven't said anything about metal since because they think metal = scene kids playing breakdowns and that I'm like those kids. Every once in a while they'll be like "why don't you ever hang out with girls? What's with metal dudes only hanging out with guys?" This was uncalled for, they asked me if I go to bars with the ladies, and I said no because I'm 18 and I can't get into bars (need to be 19 to get in), and they instantly pulled that shit on me.

A week or two ago the one guy started ripping into touchstyle guitar playing when I put on:


He said that's not the way guitar is meant to be played and that it sucks. So much rage. But I've learned to stop caring.

What neither of them knows is that I bought a sevenstring so I can get a higher string.

[bostjan]

I don't hear too many flautists complaining about people who get the extra low B on their flutes.

I do hear some pianists complain about people who play Bosendorfers. though. Maybe it depends on the crowd. I can see how a seven string or even an eight string would be great for a country picker. In fact, the first seven string guitarist I ever heard of was Bucky Pizzarelli, and the first eight string player I ever saw was Charlie Hunter. These jazz guys were playing ERG long before they were introduced into metal, ... but I think all that matters to some of these music store guys (and everyone is different, just making sweeping generalizations here) is that Jimi Hendrix didn't play a seven string, so why the hell should anyone else?!

[op1e]

I bet that guy knows 2 riffs...the one from Sling Blade and the banjo part from deliverance. "Randy, ya tunin sumbitch!!!"