How 8 string and 9 string guitars change the role of the bass player in metal.

[JamieB]

My band uses the bass to cut through mixes in certain points.

We keep are bassist in check keeping the rythm until theres perfect oppurtunity to slap and pop and cut through the mix sounds insane. weve even started to experiment with tuning the bass higher.

We also do alot of wooten style percussive bass to fill in so the drums can do more inflections on cymbals sounds pretty cool hopefully have something up soon to show you guys if your intrested.

[Xplora]

Thread resurrection: There is only one answer to this question, and you won't find it in metal.

Check out orchestration tutorials (I found the one at Northernsounds.com to be free and fantastic) to understand about the different tonality of various instruments. You can argue about the bass fitting in with the music - what about keys? Tuba? Contrabassoon? Double Bass? The sampler? The guitars/bass/drums idiom that most rock oriented guys deal with is simply ridiculous for trying to understand how to resolve the problem. The fact is, bass is a completely separate instrument, and if it wasn't for the mind numbing talentlessness of many bass players, we'd see it in its proper capacity. You don't have to be Les Claypool or Vic Wooten, but you should be doing more than just pumping on the E string an octave below. The only exceptions to this are bass/vocalists where they are at least doing something to keep busy. Check out a few good bass covers of Battery. They are walking all over the place during the chorus! The bass is filling the space created by the drums and guitar chords. Dudes from Necrophagist and Obscura are embracing this idea and it is good to hear. You MUST treat the bass as a new instrument, or just ignore it. I'm thinking about an Agile 830, and I'd tune way down to bass Drop D with a phat string, and probably run stereo output, one for a bass sim, another for guitar sim. I wouldn't intend on brutalising every track, but the possibility is there. I just don't need a second guitar or a bass if I'm slamming powerchords!

As a musician, you must open your mind to the past, and they've been dealing with these orchestration issues for CENTURIES. Much of the problem lies in the fact that most guitarist songwriters think that clever orchestration is harmonising a lead fill or making all instruments strike at the same time djent djent...

[penny1]

So throwing my 2 cents into the pond...

I remember many moons ago that the reason I first started down tuning my six strings was so I could get fuller chords and recreate the fullness of playing with a bass player. And by not having access to a bass player, trying alternate tunings, etc. etc. to cover the spectrum of playing, I expanded my own abilities to create music with depth in the tonal sounds of what a one-man-band is capable of...However-
Even though down tuning, using Baritones, 7's, and 8's are great for my need to use depth in my playing and what I can do, I still crave for the resonant and tonal sound created by the frequency spectrum of a bass. And I think that it doesn't really matter how low (or high for that matter) a guitar or bass tunes, the development (of the instruments) should be in their respective ability to efficiently express the tonal frequency range that they are trying to express. And as well as the ability to write parts that use the two in equilibrium. So even though ERGuitarists can go lower and lower and lower and not really anyone wants a Bassist to go higher and higher and higher, it is most important to think about the freq. aspects of what they each offer.
'Cuz hell even when I once down tuned my 24.75" Gibson SG and strung up a .70 gauge on the 6th string, I was still like, "...Well...This is kinda close, but I'd rather have a bass filling in these frequencies.."
I think it's important to use the bass whether or not you're playing in/below their octave. Most of the time you won't get that full frequency-tonal-resonant-impactful sound. Some do, but it's also variant on the goal of the music. Even if I was playing a 32-string ERG that's a -52 octave F#, I'm probably still gonna want a super-bass to round around those frequencies and junk. Well. Unless my 32-string guitar has 62in scale...Then I guess I'm good..

But anyhooser, I think ERG metal tends to have a somewhat general split through it that either actually utilizes the sound spectrum of bass and guitar (and ERG) together, or tends to use bass and guitar together due to tradition.

Any thoughts?

[Stephen Kale]

I agree with Xplora said. The bass has to be considered as a different instrument. There's no sense in keeping hitting the E string again and again.
The role of the bass should be seen as people are used to see the guitar. Why can't a bass playing some leads?
As it has already been said, I don't think ERGs change the role of the bass much. If you cut the bass out, even when it's played in the same octave, the intensity of the mix falls down right away (most of the time).

Of course, it depends of the part of the song, the compromises and choices a band/artist makes.
I think ERG (especially when distorded) don't change the fact that bass have that low and round bottom end that you need in a general mix.
But everything is always a question of choices.

[Xplora]

It's somewhat amusing that it is presumed that the bass guitar must constantly be present to make the music work. Check out Peter and the Wolf for some really interesting approaches to orchestration. Or chamber music in general. Yes, for that brutal assault you have to have the bass supporting the music, but we should take a more mature approach to the orchestration of the music. The dynamics of your music should call for different approaches for different feels. The bass SHOULD follow the guitar melody sometimes, it SHOULD go an octave below and pound away, and it should walk and tell its own story sometimes as well. Check out Nile's Unas Slayer of the Gods for a great example of the bass being used in a useful dynamic context. There are some apocalyptic heavy doom sections where it sounds like the bass is working extra hard, and others where it doesn't feature as much. Shem Sor (final track?) on Behemoth's Demigod album clearly shows the bass doing more than just following. Yes, these bass examples follow the melody an octave below, but they are clearly being featured to create that atmosphere of power. A guitar CANNOT do that by itself. Also check out Cannibal Corpse for intelligent use of the bass. Do you play 16ths when you don't have to?

The bass always has capacity to dynamically control the band. I think a lot of metalheads forget that. We hear the guitar because we are used to focussing on it, and because the bass is poorly mixed and played. Can you imagine Iron Maiden with a crappy bass player?

The treatment of the bass as a separate instrument creates a lot of tension for the guitars IMO, because most bands aren't clever enough to orchestrate a genuine second part. Check out Emperor's Prometheus album for a BRILLIANT demonstration of how to use different parts to really necessitate the 3 guitars in that band.

[GTailly]

Originally Posted by arsonist

Well this is crazy, but it was literally 2 minutes ago that I thought of:

how 8-9 string (extended range) guitars are a blessing to guitarists who were always sort-of "stuck between" guitar and bass guitar.
I've been playing for 13 years, and mostly in extreme (metal) music. My main priority has always been guitar, but i've always had a passion for bass. I totally respect bass guitarists, and especially their technique, and i've always sort of 'admitted' that either I have to spend a LOT of time practicing bass guitar techniques to become a good bass player, or never become one. Because of this, I sort of gave up on the whole idea of becoming a musician who's good at bass AND standard guitar, because I thought that it's either/or.
But this way, with 8/9 string guitar providing a bridge, I think there is an opportunity for musicians like myself to be able to create those ideas that they never could. I think it's a bridge between the two worlds, and that's ....ing awesome!!

I totally agree with the point you mentionned.

Actually, my friend (who was guitarist with me in my last band) always had a passion for bass guitar but kind of had the same point of view on learning it as you stated. During the last few months of the band's existence, we had both moved to 8 string guitars to achieve a type of sound we were looking for. Surprinsingly, the ability to produce ideas he had wanted to write on bass for years were now possible to kind of imitate on the 8 string and he really felt in love.

Few weeks later, band was dead and we were talking about forming a new one. This is when he made his *coming out* and announced me that he truely felt the passion to become our full-time bass player.

The new project has now been living for the last three months and we are all in love with his playing style and the basslines he writes for my riffs.

Thanks to 8 string guuitars.

By the way, since that, I sold my 8 string and bought a carvin DC727. 7 Strings and 5 string bass, best of both worlds speaking for myself.

[animalwithin]

luca, whats the guitar in your avatar?

[luca9583]

Originally Posted by animalwithin

luca, whats the guitar in your avatar?

Do you mean my old avatar with the brown headstock and 3 bass tuners (that was a Novax Charlie Hunter 8 string i sold recently), or the sexy sketch in my album that will become my custom guitar?!!!

Anyway, i started this thread a while ago because i was getting really annoyed with most metal mixes that used ERGs, in that the bass was just completely void of any bass frequencies. It's difficult though, because if you want the guitars to sound bigger, then you need to sacrifice the bottom end somewhere, which in turn is why the kick drum in metal always has that clicky beater sound..so it doesn't fight with the guitars

[JazzandMetal]

Originally Posted by luca9583

Do you mean my old avatar with the brown headstock and 3 bass tuners (that was a Novax Charlie Hunter 8 string i sold recently), or the sexy sketch in my album that will become my custom guitar?!!!

Anyway, i started this thread a while ago because i was getting really annoyed with most metal mixes that used ERGs, in that the bass was just completely void of any bass frequencies. It's difficult though, because if you want the guitars to sound bigger, then you need to sacrifice the bottom end somewhere, which in turn is why the kick drum in metal always has that clicky beater sound..so it doesn't fight with the guitars

This is a great thread you started. i did a science project a while back on the loudness war and how modern music was missing almost all of its dynamics. Maybe if the overall mix was a little quieter the drums could breathe a little.

Anyway, on James Labrie's solo album Static impulse has the awesome Marco Sfogli on a seven string and the guitar tone is really thick and low, but the bass is there and accents a bunch of things. It does these cool fills and mini solos, and really adds to the music. The bass definitely adds a ton to good music.

Opeth is a great example of awesome production, and they use the bass really well. Coming back to shat I said about the drums, the kick is still like a patterpatterpatter, but it is a little thicker than normal metal bands because of the space they give the instruments.

[Thaeon]

I don't think the guitar will ever replace the bass. The difference in the timbre is too different.

In my current project there isn't a bass player. But we a synth player doing things in that frequency range. Since I'm doing the majority of the production and I'm looking for a bit more of a full range detuned guitar sound it works. Especially the way I want to mix it. I'm going to mix in 5.1, but not as a surround mix. More like speaker groupings. The synths will share a stereo spectrum and the guitars a separate stereo spectrum with drums and backing vocals being the only true surround instruments. Lead vox, solos, snare and kick in the Center channel to focus the mix, and a low pass on the guitars and synths to filter the low end to the sub channel.

Also, listen to some NIN. There are some great songs with great mixes that don't have any bass in them.

[Explorer]

It's been raised more than once, but I want to mention it again.

In a lot of music styles, there's the idea of "comping." A lot of people think that means "accompanying," but it actually came from "complementing."

Many musical styles have instruments which overlap in range. The better musicians know how to make space for each other.

I'm not sure if the idea is being advanced that most ERG players in metal are just not capable or talented enough, or just lack the musicality, to be able to leave space in their music.

[Mordacain]

Originally Posted by Explorer

It's been raised more than once, but I want to mention it again.

In a lot of music styles, there's the idea of "comping." A lot of people think that means "accompanying," but it actually came from "complementing."

Many musical styles have instruments which overlap in range. The better musicians know how to make space for each other.

I'm not sure if the idea is being advanced that most ERG players in metal are just not capable or talented enough, or just lack the musicality, to be able to leave space in their music.

I think there is a pervading idea in modern metal that the bass & guitar need to be in lockstep playing the same notes, but in different octaves to give a powerful, full sound. Personally, it seems like a ridiculous notion to me but I'm sure some people like the effect.

I don't really see ERG affecting the position of bass in a band. Musicians make holes for eachother, it gives the piece room to breath and allows the more casual listener to hear what everyone is doing and not just a wall of sound in overlapping frequencies.

[Jimmyjam]

The way i see it for the most part is , my band has songs that use 7 and 8 strings in the low dbl drop g tunign out other guitarist uses he uses the 7,s.For me 8,s its tuned normal. The way i make the bass cut threw is for each guitar track i run one track thorugh a low pass filiter and one with a hi pass filter then pan them hard left and right.
For the bass i noticed extreme amount of mud when tuning the bass down past a C so i leave it in c and you move stuff around a few frets and your good. After that i use to EQ to crave the freq i want the bass in so that does not contend with the bass drum. The results of this sound when i get mixing it is very clear and not muddy.

[Djentleguy]

MISTAKE, PLEASE DELETE THIS MESSAGE

[MF_Kitten]

I was asked to post here. I just did some clips with a baritone guitar tuned all the way down to drop D, an octave below a regular guitar. On request, i did a clip without the bass track in it, so you guys could hear the difference, and so you can tell how much the bass is doing in there. The bass was originally in unison with the guitars, but then i made a clip where i added the bass back in, but transposed it down an octave. Just an interesting experiment!

normal, with unison bass: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/The%...20Baritone.mp3

same, but without the bass (only pressing "mute" on the bass track):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/supe...0no%20bass.mp3

normal, but with the bass transposed down an octave to super-low D:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3782113/supe...0HYPERBASS.mp3

for ridiculously low tunings, i find it sounds more focused with unison bass. around f# it starts getting harder to work it, and at low E it reaches it's limit. unless you are doing something cleaner or slower.

[ZEBOV]

Originally Posted by LordIronSpatula

Capo.

I've used a capo on my bass since I started playing. I started on a 5 string, learned that the lowest tuning I would be playing was ADGCF, tuned to that, and used a capo for higher tunings.

[anthonyferguson]

I think using ridiculous sub frequencies sparingly is an awesome idea. Why restrict bass playing to only unison octave and sub octave?
Just like how when an organist is playing loud-ass massive chords he'll have the stops that make the lowest and the highest frequencies out at once to create that massive band that makes chords sound huge.
For perspective, the lowest frequency on an organ (provided it's equipped) is about 16.4 Hz, and a pipe has to be 32ft in length to create that note. That's a bottom C. And the highest common frequency found is about C8, ~4186hz. It's not necessarily about whether you can actually hear the note as such I guess, but the effect it has on the feel.

[MF_Kitten]

Actually, i have thought about just that. Have the 4 first strings of the bass tuned to the unison tunings of the lowest strings, and then have two lower strings that are the same as the two lowest strings, but an octave lower. That way you can call in the big guns when needed! I do this with the low A for when i want to do heavy stuff on the A string of the baritone and upward.

[Rick]

After The Burial goes down to a low F and Lee tunes down an octave below the guitars with a .165, I believe.

[MF_Kitten]

yup, on a 35" scale Ibanez BTB bass. works really well, and it sounds awesome. however, playing those low notes without "reinforcing" them with the guitars the octave above doesn't work as well. The super low notes are made clear because of the octave interval being present, and their interaction together makes you hear what it is.

the same is true of the third clip i posted up there. the super low D note makes sense only when the guitar is doubling it an octave higher. You hear that it's got an octave interval, and so you can hear what it's doing. But if that low note was played by the bass alone, you wouldn't be able to tell what the hell it was.

[Ryan Duke]

Originally Posted by ZEBOV

I've used a capo on my bass since I started playing. I started on a 5 string, learned that the lowest tuning I would be playing was ADGCF, tuned to that, and used a capo for higher tunings.

Interesting, never thought of that, but I also don't play bass much.

[robotsatemygma]

Glad this thread was resurrected. Very good read and interesting statements/theories.

With the expansion of the guitar going into lower frequencies, I really think your typical metal bassist, has to step up his game and approach writing in a different manner. Come on, lets face it, for metal and most rock, they have an easy job with just reproducing root notes and sometimes a higher index melodic chording segment. Kinda lame.

When I say step up, I mean really learn their instrument and it's nuances and eccentricities. Almost in a "taking a solo" manner, much like some jazz and blues bassists, but in a tasteful manner that doesn't take away but only adds too the song, playing in the pocket, as they call it. Create lines rather then riffs.

That being said, I think a great bassist would be a person who played drums and learned some shred guitar.

[Xplora]

Originally Posted by anthonyferguson

I think using ridiculous sub frequencies sparingly is an awesome idea. Why restrict bass playing to only unison octave and sub octave? .... It's not necessarily about whether you can actually hear the note as such I guess, but the effect it has on the feel.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in my first post in this thread. A lot of it comes down to the fact that bass "typically" doesn't have a character of its own - but interestingly, ALL the great bass guitar sounds are quite different to the guitars and it is clear that the bass is, or isn't, playing. Rex from Pantera, Opeth, Alex from Cannibal Corpse, all have this woody, visceral tone that stands apart from the guitars. When you listen to Alex talk about the production and writing on their albums it is clear that he doesn't feel a need to prove anything on bass, he just wants to write a good song and creating good parts for bass is part of that. Interestingly, all three bands with great bass tone also don't follow the guitars, they have their own parts. I guess if you approach songwriting thinking that guitar, snare and kick are the main rhythm instruments you will always be castrated. When you listen to a lot of this djenty business it is pretty clear that bass isn't part of the vision.

I am definitely getting more and more interested in getting an 8 string tuned down to Bass D, to have an instrument that has no connection to guitar or bass anymore. Like my version of the Chapman Stick... because you have to have a more mature approach to orchestration than just guitar snare kick, if you want to stand out.

And let's not beat around the bush either - bands playing riffs in unison palm muted sounds absolutely awesome. I LOVE that.... but it can't be your only trick in the bag, and you need good ideas beyond 100% power.

[JazzandMetal]

Nice, Explora. Opeth definitely has the awesome production that makes every instrument heard. You could argue that that their sound sacrifices power for clarity, but when you can hear every instrument as well as that, it doesn't really matter. The super Djenty Tesseract stuff is fun for a few minutes, but then gets tiring.

[Konfyouzd]

Regardless of the frequencies produced don't the bass and guitar serve difference purposes in the band? And isn't their overall timbre different anyway?

I've seen Marcus Miller, Victor Wooten and Stanley Clark all play basses at the same time and it sounded like they were all playing completely different instruments bc of the roles they took on during said jam.

Likewise, the guitar and bass have kind of always had different roles. It just so happens more and more modern guitars can produce notes within the same frequency range as the bass.