[chavhunter]

I did use google, and most of what I found was lots of chat forum with people arguing for and against triggers, but no-one mentioning anything apart from sound replacement on the kicks (and sometimes snare). Now I know about the toms/cymbals gating idea I think triggers are awesome!! Anything that can stop one thing bleeding into another thing's mic is well worth doing in my opinion.

[JJ Rodriguez]

I personally use triggers to make every drum I hit sound like I'm hitting a baby with a hammer, but different sized babies.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by chavhunter

And Jeff yes I did read your reply about gating, parameters, but i thought that still came under sound replacement as its still the idea of having a sample played. unless you mean you have JUST the signal from the mics being gated in response to the triggers...? thinking about that, that's a really clever way of using triggers, and i can totally see why guys like portnoy would use triggers. basically when i started the thread i thought 'triggers' meant sound replacement with samples on the kicks, as that was the ONLY context in which id heard people mention triggers. but now that i understand about triggers being able to gate the signal from tom mics (this is what you mean, right?) etc., i can totally respect what you said earlier about "you dont dislike triggers, you dislike sound replacement". so do a lot of drummers outside of metal use triggers in this way? thanks for you help btw.

I know of a lot of people who use triggers for gates, for parameter adjustments, et cetera... in fact, the only people I know who actively refuse to use triggers are completely oblivious to what they actually are.

Basically, the 'normal' way a gate works is by waiting for a signal's volume to increase past a given threshold, then opening (letting sound through), and then closing after a given time period has passed, the signal has gone below some threshold, or a time period after the signal has gone below some threshold. This creates problems for analog circuits that need to either 'look ahead' somehow (which is never perfect) or just accept the need to lose a few milliseconds or so from the front of the signal. Further, if other things in the area are loud - like snares in tom mics, or kick in the snare's mics - the gate settings are very hard to get right, if usability is even possible... but when a trigger is used, it can be set back a few milliseconds in the DAW, or the audio can be shifted forward slightly, and then the trigger's signal used to open the gate instead of relying on the miced signal to do so, and then after the signal from the hit is gone the gate closes back up. In no way is a sample brought into the picture, it's just like having a 'scout' (trigger noise) look outside city walls (noise gate) to determine when to open the gigantic doors for people who should be allowed to enter. This does not make the kit any less natural... if anything, it makes gating easier, more precise, and more faithful to the original sound.

It can also be used to tell things like compressors to duck a signal, or adjust EQ stages, or other things along those lines.

Jeff

[chavhunter]

Originally Posted by JBroll

I know of a lot of people who use triggers for gates, for parameter adjustments, et cetera... in fact, the only people I know who actively refuse to use triggers are completely oblivious to what they actually are.

Basically, the 'normal' way a gate works is by waiting for a signal's volume to increase past a given threshold, then opening (letting sound through), and then closing after a given time period has passed, the signal has gone below some threshold, or a time period after the signal has gone below some threshold. This creates problems for analog circuits that need to either 'look ahead' somehow (which is never perfect) or just accept the need to lose a few milliseconds or so from the front of the signal. Further, if other things in the area are loud - like snares in tom mics, or kick in the snare's mics - the gate settings are very hard to get right, if usability is even possible... but when a trigger is used, it can be set back a few milliseconds in the DAW, or the audio can be shifted forward slightly, and then the trigger's signal used to open the gate instead of relying on the miced signal to do so, and then after the signal from the hit is gone the gate closes back up. In no way is a sample brought into the picture, it's just like having a 'scout' (trigger noise) look outside city walls (noise gate) to determine when to open the gigantic doors for people who should be allowed to enter. This does not make the kit any less natural... if anything, it makes gating easier, more precise, and more faithful to the original sound.

It can also be used to tell things like compressors to duck a signal, or adjust EQ stages, or other things along those lines.

Jeff

thats awesome, im totally for triggers now that i actually know what they're capable of. cheers for helping me out with that! i'll be sure to correct anyone else i hear slating triggers who doesnt have all their facts straight.

[MerlinTKD]

Well... I don't hate triggers... but I understand why some folks do.

It's exactly the same as when drum machines came on the scene in the 80's; folks used them to replace the sound of real drums (and real drummers), and it sounded like absolute ass. After a number of years, as the technology got better, and sounds got better, electronically produced drums became incorporated into the tool kit, as it were.

Same thing with triggers. I don't hate triggers... but I do detest what a lot of drummers (or perhaps producers/engineers) do with them. It's accepted that the soulless, lifeless sound of the early drum machines were horrible even granted that the crap was primarily due to lack of technology and lack of creativity in using them. Again, same with triggers: I don't want to hear 16th and 32nd notes from the bass drum with each exactly the same, no variation, no life. Imperfection is what brings perfection. Unimaginative use of triggers and sound sources, as if the tech will make everything better, will always fail.

Now, on the other hand... I was reading Tomas Haake's interview in Modern Drummer just today, and it got me to thinking of the incredible possibilities of triggers; with the right programming, you can make your kit sound like anything; better yet, you can blend any sound in with the sound of your kit!

In fact, Morgan Rose does this already live, if in a limited way; it's exactly what Tipton and Downing did on Turbo with their midi'd guitars, back in the day. I remember Akira Jimbo doing something like that about 10 years ago too, now that I think about it, triggering melodies via the drums and cymbals, creating a solo piece that had both melody and rhythm.

So, triggers aren't evil... but some of the people that use them are.

[chavhunter]

exactly, the responses here made me realise that i dont dislike triggers, i just dislike what some people do with them.

[7 Dying Trees]

Actually, the best way to have a guitar analogy is to record a DI signal of your guitar, and then see how much guitarists rely on high gain amps compressing their playing for them, it's an eye opener, it really is!

[JBroll]

Exactly what I was saying earlier. Consistent, my ass.

Jeff

[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by 7 Dying Trees

Actually, the best way to have a guitar analogy is to record a DI signal of your guitar, and then see how much guitarists rely on high gain amps compressing their playing for them, it's an eye opener, it really is!

Indeed. One of the reasons I practice without an amp is because of an eye-opening experience with that many years ago. Playing through a high-gain amp is much, much easier.

(There's a whole thread to be had here about my opinion on one of the reasons a lot of people hate Mesas is that they don't completely destroy the dynamics of your playing while giving you a crapload of preamp clipping, but that's off this topic.)

Truth be told, the physical aspect of being a Roddy-esque drummer is completely insane. I don't bag on anyone who plays that fast consistently and replaces sounds (especially kick drums, which need the bejeezus smashed out of them to really sound like more than a wet fish being slapped on a piece of paper), because it's an insane physical achievement to drum that fast in the first place with any sort of consistency.

As JBroll does mention repeatedly, there's a lot you can do with the technology other than simple sound replacement - but replacement is what people are bitching about. You know what? I'll bet you can't name a metal disc that doesn't sound like total ass (and even a huge number that do) that does not have at least the kicks replaced, if not the kicks and snare or the whole kit. Drum sounds are *hard* to get right in the studio, and the price of those tones generally exceeds the meager budgets of metal bands. Hell, even Nashville artists are replacing with samples (at least in the live area, which I've seen personally) because it saves money, and the technology is there to do it with destroying the performance.

[MerlinTKD]

Originally Posted by eaeolian

...and the technology is there to do it without destroying the performance.

I'm assuming that's what you meant.


I like the comparison to guitar amps... it really is the same thing (whereas mic'ing drums is like mic'ing an acoustic guitar). I agree that anyone who can play that fast needs to be recognized for that achievement, but guitarists know well that playing fast is a lot different than playing fast well. Just like the amps and setups eaeolian was mentioning, triggers make things easy, and make it easy to be sloppy and lazy.

Kick drums do NOT have to sound like a wet fish, played softly; if they do,it's because someone (be it the drummer, or an engineer) doesn't know how to select drums, heads, and/or how to tune and muffle. It's exactly the same as a guitar: if it sounds like crap acoustically, you might be able to cover it up with technology, but if it sounds good acoustically, it's going to sound awesome with tech. Can you imagine going in to record a guitar part without intonating your guitar, and just tuning it close? Of course not... but so many drummers do, and so many people encourage them to because learning how to do it right is "too hard." (No digs at present company intended )

It's really not that hard to get a good drum sound, it just takes practice and experience ( and money, ike everything else in life ). If a drummer isn't willing to take the time to try and figure out (or learn) what's going to make his or her drums sound the best, I don't have much use for them.

Same goes all around... if a musician can't play acoustically, at low volume, as well as they can with all the gear, they need to take the time to learn, or hang it up and leave room for real musicians.


All that being said... meant to mention before: Jbroll, I hadn't heard of using triggers silently the way you mentioned, I love that idea! I'll remember that trick!