[JBroll]

And, yet again, musicians fail at understanding basic recording principles...

First off, not because I need to be a dick but because there are important things at stake, lets get a couple of things clear. You don't hate triggers, you hate sound replacement. Long story short, even a fully natural kit benefits from TRIGGERS (Edit... meant triggers, sorry) because they allow for more automation in compressors, EQ, gates, and volume controls in other tracks.

Essentially, gating drums is a must. There's simply too much noise - and before anyone starts, that ISN'T where the 'vibe' comes from, that's where mushy messes come from. Gating toms isn't fun when cymbals and snares are constantly popping up, gating snares is next to bloody impossible with some setups, and triggers allow gates to be activated not by the sound around a drum (the mic) but by the drum actually getting hit (and then sending mechanical energy to the trigger, which then sends the essential electrical signal to a DAW through a 'brain' of some kind) and then there's no need for risky 'lookahead' mishaps because the trigger can open - and fade in, for a more natural sound - before the actual hit. Then, the gate can close again after a given time or when the noise goes back down to the point where the surrounding environment is causing the sound and not the drum in question, so the sound can then be ducked back down partially or completely to allow for more room for things that are actually being played.

(And before anyone says it, you do, in fact, have to compress drums. You also need to gate some things, and duck parts of the overhead response if you don't want a gigantic snarey mess dominating everything.)

Second, samples aren't cheating any more than reamping, amp sims, in-DAW processing, or recording devices more complex than single-track tape decks. What's more, you probably hear sampled drums in 99% of what you listen to, and only can detect a small part of it. The reason is that when a kit is sampled RIGHT, different attacks do give different samples, so an inconsistent hitter can still sound inconsistent and a consistent hitter still sound consistent. Sadly, most people are morons. Further, overheads and the snare (and often the kick) don't get along well. For this reason a lot of people have to use snare and kick pads so that they can actually get cymbals in the overhead at a reasonable volume without killing the listener with snare.

Consider this, though... when you play your guitar through a distorted amp, you're benefiting from MASSIVE compression because of all the clipping your signal is going through. YOU don't have to be consistent so much as able to mute properly. Your drummer, however...

As for live, have you EVER done the bulk of the work for a drumkit's sound on stage? That kick is dealing with tons of noise, a horrible floor, and usually a total idiot placing and EQing things. Plenty of drummers who can deliver live go triggers because it's the only way to have definition on even second-rate stages on such short notices as bands have. Plus, in a studio, drums can be dealt with more easily because of trial and error. Screw up a compressor live, though, and nobody's hearing the rest of the set. Not even the neighbors.

Finally, bands can 'lie' a lot of ways. The band lying is the problem, not the technique. You don't blame computers when a certain 'modern glam' band uses a computer to play half their parts for them, you don't blame noise gates when someone's stop-starts aren't tight enough, you don't blame microphones when a singer isn't loud enough. It's all hip and cool and trendy to hate triggers because you're a 'purist' or you think it's anti-cheating/pro-musician, but few people on guitar forums can be expected to know donkeycock about triggers. Blame the carpenter, not the tools.

Jeff

[chavhunter]

You obviously know your stuff, but I still disagree on a few points. As it happens Im frequently at the desk for sound check usually every week, and I always sort out the drums. Its because of this I know that through proper EQ, mixing, compression, gating, panning etc you CAN get a kit sounding damn fine without triggers, it just takes time, so Im aware that trigs can be a faster option when you have limited time to set up.

As for 'blaming equipment', I dont think that the general rule applies. I hate singers who mime/autotune-live because they should dman well be able to perform properly. Similarly, I dislike the use of triggers and I suppose you could say 'purist', but its because I know that it can be done without triggers, which Id much rather see than feather-hits with trigs which Ive seen a lot of bands (usually smaller metal bands locally) do.

Something like a noise gate however, I think thats different. If the stops and starts arent tight because the gate isnt up high enough then yeah, Id blame the gate. Even the best players couldnt do perfect stops and starts at high gain without any gate because its just not possible, thats why you wont find any metal player who dont use gates (unless anyone knows of any who do, if you did Id be very suprised). So you use a gate because thats what you need to get the right sound. But having triggered samples for kicks isnt the ONLY way to pla fast double bass, which is why not everyone uses them.

At the end of the day its all a bit opinionated, no-one is really 'wrong' or 'right'. It was good to see some different opinions cropping up. Cheers guys

[Oogadee Boogadee]

Originally Posted by kristallin

The beauty of triggers is that you can switch sounds in your e-drum brain, no issue with ballads, you just change the sounds.

like, mid song? that's nuts. last thing i want to do as a drummer mid song, is push buttons for an upcoming clean passage.

[JJ Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Oogadee Boogadee

like, mid song? that's nuts. last thing i want to do as a drummer mid song, is push buttons for an upcoming clean passage.

Could always use a MIDI control signal and set up a pad or something to hit. I'm pretty sure I can set something like that up on my TD-12 brain.

[nordhauser06]

Originally Posted by chavhunter

its basically cheating.

+1 to that.
Learn to play.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by chavhunter

You obviously know your stuff, but I still disagree on a few points. As it happens Im frequently at the desk for sound check usually every week, and I always sort out the drums. Its because of this I know that through proper EQ, mixing, compression, gating, panning etc you CAN get a kit sounding damn fine without triggers, it just takes time, so Im aware that trigs can be a faster option when you have limited time to set up.

CAN and WILL are rarely the same in live settings, and while I do agree that in general a natural sound can be done well, it's not always a possibility given time constraints or shit venues. Come check out the Red 7 in Austin sometime...

Originally Posted by chavhunter

As for 'blaming equipment', I dont think that the general rule applies. I hate singers who mime/autotune-live because they should dman well be able to perform properly. Similarly, I dislike the use of triggers and I suppose you could say 'purist', but its because I know that it can be done without triggers, which Id much rather see than feather-hits with trigs which Ive seen a lot of bands (usually smaller metal bands locally) do.

You didn't touch the guitar amp though. You're compressed to fuck and back through that high-gain amp head and cranked speakers, you don't get to judge others. How hard do you pick your strings? How consistent is *your* attack? And how loud are those pinch harmonics when they aren't squished and squeezed and dragged kicking and screaming out to the front by massive distortion? It looks like a double standard from someone who hasn't toured the shittiest of venues and faced new problems every day as a drum tech, and sounds like a double standard from someone who expects more from a pair of legs than even the most obnoxious of soccer coaches, and smells like a double standard from someone who doesn't play drums much... seriously, you can be consistent, we have women for when we want to be held to different sets of expectations.

Originally Posted by chavhunter

Something like a noise gate however, I think thats different. If the stops and starts arent tight because the gate isnt up high enough then yeah, Id blame the gate. Even the best players couldnt do perfect stops and starts at high gain without any gate because its just not possible, thats why you wont find any metal player who dont use gates (unless anyone knows of any who do, if you did Id be very suprised). So you use a gate because thats what you need to get the right sound. But having triggered samples for kicks isnt the ONLY way to pla fast double bass, which is why not everyone uses them.

Try going into a studio and seeing how much easier it is to use kick and snare pads to clear overheads up, or dealing with drummers who thwack snare mics... I'd like to agree, but sadly it seems that I live in a less happy place than you do as far as kick sounds.

Originally Posted by Oogadee Boogadee

like, mid song? that's nuts. last thing i want to do as a drummer mid song, is push buttons for an upcoming clean passage.

You can change samples midsong, and you don't need to fiddle around buttons... see, there are these nifty inventions called computers that can automate tons of things. All it takes is knowing how to either use them or find people who know how to use them.

Originally Posted by nordhauser06

+1 to that.

If you're going to play 32n notes, learn to actually play them.

Apart from setting up multiple hits for one actual kickstroke, for fuck's sake you can't play things with triggers that you can't play without them. Yes, that first thing is cheating; no, that's not very often done. And until you all send out clean clips showing that you hit your strings as hard as I do, nobody gets to complain about hard and consistent hits from drummers and then turn around and use gainalicious guitar sounds.

Jeff

jeff, I do agree in somewhat with you, but please lighten up the tone a little, you don't have to be so god damm offensive in everything you write.

[Durero]

Jeff's right on

Music is not a competitive sport, there are no rules to be broken and no such thing as cheating. Triggers are just another sound tool to be used and abused like all the other tools.

As Jeff has pointed out, you can lie in music by pretending to perform something you're not, as in lip-syncing, air-guitaring and just about every promotional music video which portrays musicians pretend-playing when they actually aren't.

If the goal of someone's performance is to impress others with their technique, and they're afraid people won't be impressed if they use triggers, then they can choose not to use them.

But if the priority is playing music instead of impressing people, then it's simply an aesthetic choice - if you like the sound pallet that triggers provide then use them, and if not then don't.



And Jeff's comment about double standards regarding drums vs. electric guitars is also right on imo (except for the stupid comment about women at the end )

[Zepp88]

Originally Posted by Desecrated

jeff, I do agree in somewhat with you, but please lighten up the tone a little, you don't have to be so god damm offensive in everything you write.

I find it absolutely hillarious and entertaining What makes it even better is that he's right.

Getting live drums to sound perfect is a bitch.

[neon_black88]

Can someone kindly point me towards these supposed metal drummers who play upwards of 200bpm without triggers and sound good? Or as someone said, "better" than with triggers?