[MerlinTKD]

Er, dude... I *am* a drummer. For 20 years now. A gigging musician for half that time. My opinions are coming from personal experience, not BS based on preconceived notions.

My opinions on guitar stuff is, but not drums and drumming.


Having said that, I'm in full agreement that the song determines the sound. I seem to hear so many bands and recordings that don't follow that logic, and use sounds and techniques just because it's the current rage, because, as you said, so-and-so use them so you HAVE to.

While I love the sound of acoustic drums, I'm no anti-technologist. Trent Reznor uses all sorts of replacement sounds for rhythm, no one can say it would sound better with an acoustic kit instead. On the other hand, I always thought Burton Bell's voice was too organic for the industrial guitar and drum sound of Fear Factory (just an example using my opinion). Scott Rockenfield's drums still sound perfect on Queensryche's Rage for Order, I'd love to know how they were recorded.

I've been using a Toneport GX to write and record, using a Zendrum and Alesis D4 for drums, so I obviously have no problem with digital sound sources. When my band Kavish recorded, our guitarist (who had always used a digital system) set it aside and started using pedals and an amp - it made a huuuge difference. The right tool for right job. I just can't stand all the folks using the same tool, over and over, whether it's appropriate or not.

I don't think the ubiquitous use of triggers is cheating; I do think they're overused and allow too many drummers to use speed and technique as a replacement for creativity. But then, that problem isn't restricted to drummers.


One thing I've never understood... for those drummers who use triggered sounds exclusively, why use acoustic drums at all? The latest pads I've seen have great cushion and rebound, including kicks... a person could make a killer looking kit with some of the current electronic setups. So... I wonder why not?

[kristallin]

Originally Posted by MerlinTKD

Scott Rockenfield's drums still sound perfect on Queensryche's Rage for Order, I'd love to know how they were recorded.

Drums were miked up, the signal split and sent to a PA rig set up in a concrete-floored warehouse, the ambient sound was mic'ed and mixed with the close-mic'ed sounds - pretty much standard production for 80s rock productions.

BTW, on the subject of sound replacement - Steely Dan were pioneers in this field on their late 70s early 80s productions. Steve Gadd has said that his snares snapped during a take, but he kept on playing, they simply used a Wendel drum sampler to replace the subsequent hits with snare hits from the beginning of the take.

[MerlinTKD]

Nice! Thanks for the info!

[Justin Bailey]

almost thought this thread title said something else (anyone else hate triggers... think about it) I think that means it's time for some sleep!

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by MerlinTKD

Er, dude... I *am* a drummer. For 20 years now. A gigging musician for half that time. My opinions are coming from personal experience, not BS based on preconceived notions.

My opinions on guitar stuff is, but not drums and drumming.

Having said that, I'm in full agreement that the song determines the sound. I seem to hear so many bands and recordings that don't follow that logic, and use sounds and techniques just because it's the current rage, because, as you said, so-and-so use them so you HAVE to.

While I love the sound of acoustic drums, I'm no anti-technologist. Trent Reznor uses all sorts of replacement sounds for rhythm, no one can say it would sound better with an acoustic kit instead. On the other hand, I always thought Burton Bell's voice was too organic for the industrial guitar and drum sound of Fear Factory (just an example using my opinion). Scott Rockenfield's drums still sound perfect on Queensryche's Rage for Order, I'd love to know how they were recorded.

I've been using a Toneport GX to write and record, using a Zendrum and Alesis D4 for drums, so I obviously have no problem with digital sound sources. When my band Kavish recorded, our guitarist (who had always used a digital system) set it aside and started using pedals and an amp - it made a huuuge difference. The right tool for right job. I just can't stand all the folks using the same tool, over and over, whether it's appropriate or not.

I don't think the ubiquitous use of triggers is cheating; I do think they're overused and allow too many drummers to use speed and technique as a replacement for creativity. But then, that problem isn't restricted to drummers.

One thing I've never understood... for those drummers who use triggered sounds exclusively, why use acoustic drums at all? The latest pads I've seen have great cushion and rebound, including kicks... a person could make a killer looking kit with some of the current electronic setups. So... I wonder why not?

We both know I wasn't referring to you on that first part, though...

As for the acoustic drums thing, I've heard a number of answers... one is that they still like the feel better, another is that the band didn't want to look stupid with a bunch of black pancakes on stage, another is that they liked hearing what they were playing out of their own drumkit and not through headphones or monitors.

Year Zero is fucking cool, and I also have to hand it to Ministry for just being general all-around badasses at the Austin show. They more than made up for the obnoxious 13-year-olds who wanted to be goth sluts but couldn't because their dads or older brothers had to chaperone them and the surprising number of moron frat boys who thought they could scream and really just sounded like annoyed cicada-pig crossbreeds. Those aren't scenarios where natural sounds fit.

Jeff

[guitarplayerone]

drummers still need to practice accuracy with a triggered set... if the bass drum is off, then it's off, and sound replacement won't do anything to that.

the best triggered drummers I have known can play everything acoustic that they play triggered, they just prefer some mix of triggers to improve the 'cut' in the music.

this is coming from a metal perspective of course.

[JBroll]

I'd approach triggered drums in practice like I would approach high-gain guitar in practice... play a lot of clean and play some more dirty than normal also. Consistency is always going to be a trait that's good to have, and most people aren't going to set their MIDI brains up to use different samples at different velocities so they might not notice that - much like how guitarists may not notice that their picking is inconsistent and wimpy if they always crank the pre gain.

Jeff

[kristallin]

Originally Posted by guitarplayerone

drummers still need to practice accuracy with a triggered set... if the bass drum is off, then it's off, and sound replacement won't do anything to that.

the best triggered drummers I have known can play everything acoustic that they play triggered, they just prefer some mix of triggers to improve the 'cut' in the music.

this is coming from a metal perspective of course.

Also, coming from New York you know that in some nights you have about 2 seconds to do a line check and you're on. Sound check? "Uhhh, no, but I can get you a pizza..."

[Ancestor]

Originally Posted by JBroll

An
Not everyone needs to be the Mahavishnu Orchestra. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to expect that.

Perfect example. And Billy Cobham said explicitly in his clinic that he was all about single-ply heads miked and the resulting signal amplified as needed relevant to the drummer's touch.

[drawnQ]

i'm not exactly certain how a trigger is used. is it placed inside the drum and sends a signal whenever the attack hits?

i understand the concept of triggers but do not understand their application on the drumset. or are they even used on the drumseT?