The Official Decibel Guitars Thread - builds in progress

[Fred the Shred]

Hannes has no problem with it as far as I know. Schaller, on the other hand, were even threatening lawsuits for using their components on the fanned protos (which weren't intended for commercial use) using the Hannes template, so there's your bottleneck - they are attempting to preserve their exclusivity, basically.

[Malkav]

Originally Posted by Fred the Shred

Hannes has no problem with it as far as I know. Schaller, on the other hand, were even threatening lawsuits for using their components on the fanned protos (which weren't intended for commercial use) using the Hannes template, so there's your bottleneck - they are attempting to preserve their exclusivity, basically.

Thank you for a useful answer Fred I get that Schaller would want to protect their exclusivity but then why not manufacture a seven string or eight string version on demand or in batch runs or something? Seems strange to me that they would happily turn down the extra possible income.

@Thrashmanzac - I think you miss the point of what I'm saying, it's lovely that he's allowed Darren to use his bridges/patent but it's the part where anyone looking to upgrade to a Hannes bridge as an aftermarket thing cannot buy one from Decibel or Schaller that I find a little silly. Especially considering that Schaller do a 6 string one already as an available aftermarket spare, ultimately it's discrimination and I won't stand for it

[Fred the Shred]

Trust me on this: the email exchange was nothing short of surreal, and enough to abandon the idea of a tweaked prototype which would be proposed for licensing (even though not for direct sale, due to the way commercial rights are handled).

The current bridge is nothing short of great, mind you, but the plan was to accommodate Hannes fans with a fanned fret alternative should they want one on the JR fanned fret range. Sometimes, you just can't get what you want.

[darren]

Originally Posted by canuck brian

It's probably more Schaller bringing down the hammer as they're licensing the product.

This is exactly it. Roland Hannes is a designer, not a manufacturer, and he'd love to see his bridge more widely used. But I assume his design is under exclusive license to Schaller, so they likely call the shots.

I wonder if there are any legal grounds for a lawsuit. If the user buys a Schaller bridge at retail and designs their own aftermarket parts to fit their needs, no patents or licensing agreements have been broken. Schaller still gets the retail price for the whole bridge, even though half of it goes in the garbage.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by darren

This is exactly it. Roland Hannes is a designer, not a manufacturer, and he'd love to see his bridge more widely used. But I assume his design is under exclusive license to Schaller, so they likely call the shots.

I wonder if there are any legal grounds for a lawsuit. If the user buys a Schaller bridge at retail and designs their own aftermarket parts to fit their needs, no patents or licensing agreements have been broken. Schaller still gets the retail price for the whole bridge, even though half of it goes in the garbage.

pretty sure that Schaller wouldnt threaten to sue an individual who modded a bridge in that way but they did make it clear to [ahem, someone I know very, very well indeed] that they would sue/confiscate guitars from shows etc if they saw a similar bridge on a guitar available for sale, regardless of the scales or amount of strings adopted.

what beats me is that they could get some kudos from the whole ERG market doing new and innovative (even though Schaller claim to be "the innovators") stuff with the Hannes format.

what also beats me is that what are they going to sue for ? loss of revenue / damages / patent infringement ? whatever it would be, Darren and anyone else who has done any testing with that format would only be raising the profile of the bridge and bringing it to a new customer so.... ? whatever..

they dont have any plans to release a multiscale variant, or a 7 / 8 string variant but they dont want anyone else to do so either...

oh well, the graphtech saddles we have the 8 string "Fanned Fred" are fantastic.

ROCK !

[Jaden]

bugger, double post.

[TemjinStrife]

Originally Posted by Malkav

Thank you for a useful answer Fred I get that Schaller would want to protect their exclusivity but then why not manufacture a seven string or eight string version on demand or in batch runs or something? Seems strange to me that they would happily turn down the extra possible income.

Because it's expensive to bring even one new product to market, and they would have to have the bridges made in mass quantities in order to make it cost effective. Schaller doesn't want to sit on two and a half thousand Hannes 7 and 8 bridges taking up space and costs.

[0 Xero 0]

I'm loving the builds so far, Darren. Keep up the good work and have fun at namm

[Malkav]

Originally Posted by TemjinStrife

Because it's expensive to bring even one new product to market, and they would have to have the bridges made in mass quantities in order to make it cost effective. Schaller doesn't want to sit on two and a half thousand Hannes 7 and 8 bridges taking up space and costs.

That's why I said they could do batch runs, from a machining point of view all that would have to really change to do a 7 string hannes at least is to manufacture a different back piece, the saddles aren't going to be different. If Hipshot manage to find it cost effective enough to do RG7321 replacement bridges in batch runs then there's no reason why the Schaller Hannes bridge couldn't operate on the same system.

As Jaden stated above Schaller are just being difficult with regards to the manufacture of ERG bridges, there's no logical reason that they wouldn't offer it or allow another manufacturer to make an adaptation of it, especially in Jaden's case where he was actually buying normal Hannes bridges from Schaller and then bastardising them.

Anyway this is unfortunately not something that'll be resolved over an internet forum, hopefully Schaller will lighten up or release the Hannes in 7 & 8 string formats eventually.

Either way cheers to Jaden and Darren! Absolutely love the work you guys put out, I hope for many more advances of an awesome nature in your futures

[TemjinStrife]

I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that Hipshot and Schaller are very different business models, with very different methods of production. If Schaller keeps things profitable by doing runs of thousands at a time, then stopping and reprogramming the machines to do a "batch run" of backpieces and string-thru plates for the bridge would cost them a lot of time and money.

Hipshot is somewhat of a smaller operation.

[JaeSwift]

From what I gather from this situation, Schaller wants you to prevent making more money behind their backs because the only way to get ERG versions of the Hannes would be through boutique luthiers instead of Schaller, even though they would get the bucks for selling you the 6 string bridge that you'de have to dismantle. Theoretically speaking you could make quite a bit more money than they would from you just buying the Hannes 6 string bridges.

It's ridiculous though. Saying that there wouldn't be a market for this is quite prepostorous seeing as how a LOT, and I mean a LOT of luthiers make or focus on ERG's these days as it's their way to compete with mass-manufactured guitars; for every 100 6 string Ibanez RG there's only 1 7/8/fan fretted guitar.

[BTFStan]

want

[darren]

Actually, the opposite is likely true. I have to buy two Hannes bridges from Schaller to make one 7-string bridge based off that design. I wouldn't be charging much markup (if any) to build one for my guitars. With the cost of machining and the parts, it's pretty much billed on a cost-recovery basis. I likely wouldn't be making a dime in profits by making my own Hannes tailpieces, so I really can't figure out what Schaller's issue is.

History has typically not been kind to companies who try to squash aftermarket innovation on a product people are devoted to. Can you imagine an automotive industry without a healthy aftermarket parts industry? Heck, even Floyd Rose seems to be okay with Floyd Upgrades embracing and extending their platform, and Floyd has a long history of defending his patent rights.

[JaeSwift]

Originally Posted by darren

Actually, the opposite is likely true. I have to buy two Hannes bridges from Schaller to make one 7-string bridge based off that design. I wouldn't be charging much markup (if any) to build one for my guitars. With the cost of machining and the parts, it's pretty much billed on a cost-recovery basis. I likely wouldn't be making a dime in profits by making my own Hannes tailpieces, so I really can't figure out what Schaller's issue is.

History has typically not been kind to companies who try to squash aftermarket innovation on a product people are devoted to. Can you imagine an automotive industry without a healthy aftermarket parts industry? Heck, even Floyd Rose seems to be okay with Floyd Upgrades embracing and extending their platform, and Floyd has a long history of defending his patent rights.

In that case, Schaller are just being douchebags. Hope this bites them in the ass.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by darren

Actually, the opposite is likely true. I have to buy two Hannes bridges from Schaller to make one 7-string bridge based off that design. I wouldn't be charging much markup (if any) to build one for my guitars. With the cost of machining and the parts, it's pretty much billed on a cost-recovery basis. I likely wouldn't be making a dime in profits by making my own Hannes tailpieces, so I really can't figure out what Schaller's issue is.

History has typically not been kind to companies who try to squash aftermarket innovation on a product people are devoted to. Can you imagine an automotive industry without a healthy aftermarket parts industry? Heck, even Floyd Rose seems to be okay with Floyd Upgrades embracing and extending their platform, and Floyd has a long history of defending his patent rights.

this, exactly.. see you at NAMM Darren

[darren]

Looking forward to it, Jaden!

[JaeSwift]

Originally Posted by darren

Looking forward to it, Jaden!

May I suggest that you, Jaden and other luthiers (I'm guessing there's more than just you two that share the same opinion) band together and confront Schaller at NAMM?

[Solodini]

With a baseball bat, a chain and a length of pipe?

[darren]

dB2: Grain-enhancing dye on figured South American mahogany with light water-based poly and beeswax final polish. Ready for electronics, final assembly and detailing!



dB3: Fire-blackened edges, dyed raw ash with light water-based poly and beeswax final polish. Ready for electronics, final assembly and detailing!

[kruneh]

That´s some sweet work there, Mr.

[AxeHappy]

Yeah...these only make me wish I hadn't waited until 50 something on the wait list!!!

[JaeSwift]

Ye gods Darren, just when I thought the Javelin was the epitomy of design you come up with this!

[Sepultorture]

WOW Darren, just effing WOW

you are making playable art mate, love it

[darren]

[canuck brian]

Originally Posted by darren

Tease. Post the rest!!!