[eleven59]

When you map out all of the modes for any given key, you realize that all 12 notes are used, basically meaning that there's no such thing as a wrong note in any key.

Once I figured that out, I was ok with not bother to learn modes, which I hated being forced to memorize. I'll stick with playing whatever I think sounds good, and let the theory geeks out there tell me what I'm playing.

[neon_black88]

Originally Posted by eleven59

When you map out all of the modes for any given key, you realize that all 12 notes are used, basically meaning that there's no such thing as a wrong note in any key.

What? If you play a C dorian it is in B Flat major, not C. C Ionian is in C. If you play every mode starting on C, all the notes will be used but you will be changing key for every mode.

[Durero]

Originally Posted by MetalSir

mmmm.. they come from greek and them Harmoniai (mmm.. i havent the greek letters on my keyboards).. eolian, phrigian, dorian an so on are names of the the old greek (ellenic) population..

greek based them musical sistem on this modes (that is the letteral translation of the word Harmoniai).
Harmoniai or mood correspond to a particular scale, but a lot of historians tell us that each Harmoniai included rhythms, traditional melody, way of execution, etc..

so each Harmoniai or mood was the way to use only one word to identify perfectly the nature of the music of dorians population, phrigian, eolian, etc.. =)

each Harmoniai for greek has the power of generating Ethos, that is a strong effect on human mind and body.
for ex, dorian uses an istrument called Lyra that, for them, determined in mind composure and moderation..

=D

eheh.. this is the only part of "occidental music story" that i studied really with pleasure.. =) i love greek story and mythology..




ps: i search it on my books ( i can't remeger this..), romans with gregorian music imported some greek moods.. (dorian, phrigian, lidian and mixolidian) and made 8 main different moods called "The 8th Ecclesiastic Moods" that were (in latin):

1.protus autentic
2.protus plagale
3.deuterus autentic
4.deuterus plagale
5.tritus autentic
6.tritus plagale
7.tetrardus autentic
8.tetrardus plagale

Excellent post man!
+rep for you

my music theory class only glossed over this subject, mentioning that pope Gregory organized the modes commonly used in Gregorian chant into the 7 modes we commonly use today. Nice to hear much more detail about this from you.

[MetalSir]

Originally Posted by Durero

Excellent post man!
+rep for you

my music theory class only glossed over this subject, mentioning that pope Gregory organized the modes commonly used in Gregorian chant into the 7 modes we commonly use today. Nice to hear much more detail about this from you.

really tks man.. =) i hope to have written it without too much errors.. =)
eheh.. greek give us in the ellenic prerind more than the rest of the world in 4000 years.. greek poems still inspire us.. and man like pitagora, euclide, talete, platone, aristotele, (and so on) still are inside each thing we mind to do with them mathematics theorems..

i mind that this is impressive..

tks man! =)

[olsonuf]

Originally Posted by Durero

The modes of the major scale are very old names used in the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages. They were used in Gregorian chant and pre-date chords and 3rds based harmony.

I find it easiest to think & visualize them this way:

Ionian mode = 1 2 34 5 6 71 (= Major Scale)
Dorian mode = 2 34 5 6 71 2
Phrygian mode = 34 5 6 71 2 3
Lydian mode = 4 5 6 71 2 34
Mixolydian mode = 5 6 71 2 34 5
Aeolian mode = 6 71 2 34 5 6 (= Natural Minor Scale)
Locrian mode = 71 2 34 5 6 7

note 34 and 71 are always 1 fret apart, all the others are 2 frets apart

Excellently put! This is exactly how I think of scales and modes - by scale degree number.

Originally Posted by eleven59

When you map out all of the modes for any given key, you realize that all 12 notes are used, basically meaning that there's no such thing as a wrong note in any key.

Sorry, not correct. There are only 7, not 12, notes in any given key (and keys are based on diatonic scales). 12 notes would make it a chromatic scale. There are definitely wrong notes in any scale. That's not to say that you can't use notes that are outside of the scale and make them sound good; people do that all the time. But the whole point in learning your scales and modes is so that you can do that KNOWINGLY, not by mistake.

Since there are only 7 notes in a diatonic scale, that means there are only 7 scale shapes (excluding the scale variations, like harmonic, melodic, hungarian, neapolitan, etc), and thus, only 7 individual-string patterns (assuming you're using 3-note-per-string shapes) to remember the order of, before the pattern repeats. Trust me, it IS worth learning it.

Originally Posted by eleven59

Once I figured that out, I was ok with not bother to learn modes, which I hated being forced to memorize. I'll stick with playing whatever I think sounds good, and let the theory geeks out there tell me what I'm playing.

That also places a huge burden on any prospective bandmates you may have currently or in the future. The whole point in learning these musical systems is for the purpose of communicating musical ideas with others. The more you know (and know well) the better you can explain what you're doing so that someone else can accompany you (or vice-versa).

Originally Posted by Brett89

What is the difference between scales and modes?

Maybe I see it wrong, but are modes are same as major/minor scales?

For example: C major = C Ionian
C Dorian = A# Major

Thanks in advance!

Scales are sets of notes arranged in a particular order by interval, or how far apart they are from the adjacent notes.

Modes are when you play these scales starting on each of the notes in the scale.

For example, IONIAN is the mode commonly known as "Major", as AEOLIAN is commonly known as "Minor". So in the key of C (Ionian is always used to denote the major key, and Aeolian is always used to denote the minor key, regardless of what mode is currently being played) the modes would be as follows:

Ionian: CDEFGABC (I)
Dorian: DEFGABCD (II)
Phrygian: EFGABCDE (III)
Lydian: FGABCDEF (IV)
Mixolydian: GABCDEFG (V)
Aeolian: ABCDEFGA (VI)
Locrian: BCDEFGAB (VII)

The only difference, then, between C Major and A minor is that in A minor, you'd start on Aeolian mode. Thus, C Major is the Relative Major key to A minor, and A minor is the Relative Minor key of C Major. (Which in turn means that you could theoretically play A minor scales over a C Major chord or progression, and vice-versa.)

Aeolian: ABCDEFGA (I)
Locrian: BCDEFGAB (II)
Ionian: CDEFGABC (III)
Dorian: DEFGABCD (IV)
Phrygian: EFGABCDE (V)
Lydian: FGABCDEF (VI)
Mixolydian: GABCDEFG (VII)

============================
Building Chords and Arpeggios From Scales and Modes:

Now, with the knowledge above, you can create your own chords. Triads are 3-note chords (or arpeggios, if the notes of the chord are played individually) which are classified as major, minor, diminished, or augmented.

So, from the C Major scale, you would take notes #1, #3, & #5 -- C, E, and G, respectively -- to make your C Major chord or arpeggio. (You can also add the final C an octave above, as well, if you want; I didn't in the example below.)

C D E F G A B C

The cool thing is, you can take ANY C, ANY E, and ANY G and you will have a C Major chord. (Expanding the idea even further, you can even have a bass guitar play a C, you play an E on guitar, and have a keyboard playing a G, all at once, and it will still create a C Major chord).

The chart below illustrates which chords, and what type of chords, are made from doing this same thing at each scale degree:

C (Major): CDEFGABC
D (minor): DEFGABCD
E (minor): EFGABCDE
F (Major): FGABCDEF
G (Major): GABCDEFG
A (minor): ABCDEFGA
B (diminished): BCDEFGAB

I recommend playing through these, and as you do, pay close attention to how far apart (how many frets apart, that is) each note in each triad is from the others.

You'll see that the types of triads are constructed as follows:

Major Triad = Major 3rd (4 frets) + Minor 3rd (3 frets)
Minor Triad = Minor 3rd (3 frets) + Major 3rd (4 frets)
Diminished Triad = Minor 3rd (3 frets) + Minor 3rd (3 frets)
Augmented Triad = Major 3rd (4 frets) + Major 3rd (4 frets)

You'll notice that an Augmented Triad does not occur naturally within a Natural Major or Minor scale. It DOES, however, fall within the Harmonic Minor and Hungarian Minor scale shapes, from the Mixolydian Mode, but is not made from quite the same formula:

A Harmonic minor (Mixolydian Mode - starts on G#)
G# A B C D E F G#

A Hungarian minor (again, Mixolydian Mode - starts on G#)
G# A B C D# E F G#

Okay....that should probably overwhelm most people who are just starting out on this. Just keep referring back to it; you'll get it with time and much repetition; I did.

Good luck and enjoy!

[distressed_romeo]

Very informative. Rep due.

[ElRay]

Originally Posted by olsonuf

The only difference, then, between C Major and A minor is that in A minor, you'd start on Aeolian mode.

I think the "same notes" bits are what confuses a lot of folks because they're thinking of modes as an end in themselves.

Originally Posted by BCrowell

While it's certainly true that the same notes are shared between different modes, (such as G-Major/Ionian, A Dorian, C Lydian) the tonal CENTER compared to the defining intervals is what's important when you speak of modes.

Right. I think this is what gets lost when many folks start learning modes. The key is:

Modes mean nothing unless there is a real or an implied tonal center.

If you're playing notes from "The C Major Scale", but the tonal center is "A", you're really playing in A Minor. Likewise, you can be playing nothing but the seven notes that make-up "The G-Major Scale", but if the tonal center is going from G to A to C, what you're playing is going from G-Ionian to A-Dorian to C-Lydian mode even though you're not doing anything different.

Ray

[bostjan]

The church modes are just a special set of scales. Many many scales have more than one name, for instance, the Double Harmonic Scale is also known as the Byzantine Scale.

The names of the church modes were determined by the Catholic Church. They were incorrectly based on the ancient greek modes, but the Greeks did not call the same scales by the same names.

You can extend the idea of the church modes to any scale, for instance, the Hirrajoshi scale taken up to the second degree is the Iwato scale.

\\but these are not known as "modes." They are more formally called "related scales."

[Prada3353]

this is a great thread, and don't worry about your english, its pretty good, it's very understandable

[SchecterWhore]

Does modality imply resolution on a modal chord? Certainly, in B minor (Aeolian), the resolution is going to be on B minor, not on its relative major, D, but does the same apply for every mode in the key of D? I've composed stuff in the Lydian mode, started on VI and ended on VI, and it sounded like complete crap. Of course, I'm probably not doing it correctly, being a first semester theory student.