[knuckle_head]

Originally Posted by MF_Kitten

i just believe in doing what sounds good, and i´ve managed to make a low E sound useful. i´ve also had band bractise in drop G, and here too, the bass was useful, and did it´s job. my Hartke combo´s graphic EQ goes down to 30 Hz, so it´s close. i use it for guitars though, but still :P

Exactly - it just needs to work. And it can with the tools at hand.

If I might suggest, you might do your Hartke a favor and see if you can wire in a 30 Hz high pass filter somewhere - they're pretty cheap.

[swayman]

Originally Posted by Desecrated

I respect your opinion, well written and nice info, but you should try a v-amp guitar digital processor and then run that through a preamp, eq and compressor, it really produces a good bass sound if you want the more crunchy bass with a little bit of dist on it.

Completely, I plan on experimenting with PODs & Vamps this year to see what I can pull out of them.

I think Valve players (like me) can get a little stuck in their ways, I don't wanna cut myself off to the possibility of a better tone.

[angus]

Originally Posted by knuckle_head

Exactly - it just needs to work. And it can with the tools at hand.

Come on Skip, don't do that. It's the God move- the sonic analog of saying "Because I have faith." It stops the entire discussion right then and there because that statement leaves nowhere to go. Why bother setting up an entire conversation only to say "nah, none of it matters". Well then why talk about it?

I also find that statement a little odd from someone who makes a business out of pushing boundaries with very niche-market, purpose-driven instruments. If any tool "just needs to work", then why don't you sell p-basses with widened nut slots? I'd love to hear more discussion and less hand-waving from you because I think you have a lot to offer this discussion and it's doing a disservice to it to simply say "anything works". What does that say?

I don't think holding a discussion on the how to make such low notes more useful, relevant and sonorous is actually going to drive anyone away from trying it- I don't think stating my opinions was going to put MF_Kitten off. I don't think it's fair to say everything works fine live, though- as I said, I've never heard someone pull it off well live. Recordings are another issues and not nearly as bad because it eliminates half of the equation.

For the record, yeah, I have all that stuff but I don't bring it to larger venues for those kind of gigs. I'm primarily a jazz player, and for those I bring a tiny setup- combo or small cab with my shitty G-K head. Sounds like crap loud, but at the low volumes of most jazz gigs it sounds pretty good, is easy to haul, and I don't care if it gets beat up. I never said I bring all that stuff to the coffee shop.

I'm just saying I think there is plenty of opportunity to discuss the cons of plays notes that low and how to make improvements here that is being tossed out by saying "what you have is good enough". Besides that I doubt that you really feel that that is 100% the case for everyone, I don't think it's a great way to transmit information.

By the same logic, everyone should be playing super cheap instruments through crappy rigs with old strings and microphonic pickups. The tools at hand aren't always good enough, which is why we make improvements. I know you believe that- that's why you have the business you do making the awesome products that you do- so I'm a little surprised that the discussion stopped where it did.

I understand that they're words of encouragement more than anything else, but I don't think anything in this conversation is really going to scare people away.

[knuckle_head]

Doing it poorly or inadequately is the lion's share of how it has to be done at the moment. And doing it right now is more important than waiting until you have or even can get what is necessary to do it right.

I certainly believe that the way I do it has advantages, but I also know that most players can't shell out $3k for an instrument, $2k for sub-frequency reproduction, and have a rig that is competent down to 40 Hz.

It really does go beyond encouragement. Most players that get an octave bass of mine in their hands have no idea what to do with it because they are unaccustomed to playing that low. Anybody that HAS played that low are impressed with the difference between what they can get or have been handed and what I do. I am not diminished by it being done 'the wrong way'. I shine only if it is being done at all.

As for how it ought to be done, that is a whole 'nuther thing. And it really does start with the rig you have. Nobody plays a rig that sounds like ass if they can help it. And there is no reason to ditch the investment in something that is meant to reproduce only standard frequencies, because that has to be done anyway.

In actuality I think that MF_Kitten is in a reasonable place as with a crossover, INFRA processor and a single 18" cab she'd be rockin. This assuming that she likes what is coming out of her Hartke.

My rig would be completely different from her's; I am building a full range cab that will get me flat to about 35 Hz - it is a listening as opposed to a performance cab that will do just shy of 300 watts at 6 ohms at roughly 96/97 dB. My rigors are more demanding than most as I need flat down to 10 Hz, so two single INFRA cabs are called for.

My experience has suggested that you need twice the power out of subs as your full range rig to get you a flat response curve at 20 Hz. To get flat to 10 Hz you need to double that.

But I need to hear everything that a bass produces. Most players just need a bit of a boost where a standard rig doesn't go.

EDIT; I don't amplify at the moment. I use a headphone amp and headphones as it is as good as any rig that is competent to 30 Hz or so. I have a 1x10/1x12 and single 15 sub that I built myself, but the sub is only competent to 19 Hz, and I lack a power amp.

[somn]

to produce the low f and low c string clearly youll needed a powerfull amp or poweramp the more watts the better you can read about it somewhere on erb.com that and a very great cab like those isp or whoppo grande type cabs <i love that name lol>but even with all the right stuff my problem when first confronted with it was it did not seem loud and i wanted to crank it up more well the reason is and i found this out in the studio is that the low frq of the tuning has large waves it may sound low in vol in front of you but move back far enuff like lets say outside ur house you hear it loud and proud
oh and a very good compresor helps alot too