[TheHandOfStone]

Originally Posted by Trespass

Fuck, can't you guys realize the reason us ID/Creationists try to convince you guys is not for some crazy self-serving scheme, were doing everything we can to help you guys reach a paradise we believe in. We are moved by compassion!

Forget the method, (their are too many of us, and were all lumped in the same group for me to argue whose method is in the right, whose in the wrong) but damnit were trying.

For us, its the same as someone dying in the desert, and we know the location of the oasis that would save your life, and only ask that you trust us to help guide you there. We're not carrying you, you have to get to the water yourself. We do these things because we try to love one another, for peace and prosperity, and freedom of speech.

I have many problems myself with the various denominations within Christianity, not because their message is bad, but because each denomination has a different method of getting people to the end result. I feel nearly all methods these days are just terrible and contradict the point of freedom of choice on a religious level, and usually just put people against religion itself (Muslim extremists/Crusades/Spanish Inquisition etc.).

I'm open to any religious talk, and will happily listen to anything you have to refute of what I say now or in the future in regards to religion. If anything needs to be discussed on PM, or MSN, I'm happy as well.

Thanks,
Kris

Except that the "oasis" you speak of could very well be a mirage. In which case, you lead us in circles until we die of dehydration.

I appreciate your concern, but I think you get my point.

Originally Posted by Vince

IMO, both Atheism and Faithfullness are ridiculous to me because either way you're just guessing and assuming a position. No one knows for sure one way or another.

I look at it this way... picture a huge circle, maybe 20-30 meters wide. That big circle represents all the knowledge in the universe. Now imagine a tiny dot on that circle, made with let's say a pen or marker. That dot represents what humanity, us, actually know about the universe. There's almost an infinite amount we do not know. Science & research is there to expand that dot and through those academic pursuits we learn more about the universe we live in. Religion, or faithfulness, on the other hand, guesses in the darkness, trys to fill in the void without reason, research, or critical intelligent thought.

We do not know what is out there. We only have 5 senses, can only see & hear a small amount of wavelengths we know exist, and if you follow any peer-reviewed research about things like string theory, there are as many as 9-13 dimensions we do not understand or know about that potentially hold the universe together.

SO, to say there DEFINITELY is a God, or you DEFINITELY know about what happens to you after you die is close minded, just as saying there DEFINITELY isn't a God is just as close-minded, because we simply don't know. Ideas are good. Intelligent thought & discourse is good. Beliefs are bad. No one dies for an idea, but people will go to war over beliefs.

I'm a Recovering Catholic, and I'm proud to say I'm agnostic. I do not know, do not assume the arrogance to say I know, and either way I believe life is beautiful and we're all very lucky to be alive.

+ Rep. I too have recently turned from Catholicism. I guess I just feel religion serves to safeguard the mind against unanswerable questions. You really hit the nail on the head here.